I do think amps do make a difference, but mostly because of their output power/impedance.
1 Like
I also believe that they do, I did notice a difference with my EarMen TR-Amp, itâs just that the cheaper stuff could use components that are on the same level as the stuff in your laptop. The only clear difference that I noticed with Tempotec is that I could play phones louder.
The DAC and AMP chips do play a role, and you can see that. EarMen uses flagship chips from ESS, Tempotec doesnât.
1 Like
Dacs ARE different; whn I got the Ares II there was a significant change in soundstage and clarity. So if you havenât experienced how Dacs are different, it may be because you havenât tried that many different Dacs.
Some are very similar, so find some who are labled as being different, then you should experience the value of different dacs.
edt.: R2R dacs are clearly different from chip dacs, so a good place to start
4 Likes
I compared the LG G7 dac vs the Topping E30 vs the Ibasso DX160 with the JDS atom as the amp. No difference at all. I am not going to spend more money on a dac for that abysmally change if there is one. better to use it on the transducer and the amp if needed.
Very possible. But if there were already tests of people listening to a small budget DAC and a âfull-sizeâ expensive DAC (>3000 USD) and couldnât tell the difference, it is possible.
Both are possible. Subjective as always. I believe that the more expensive DACs were R2R, but Iâm not sure. And I am not exaggerating the price difference, somebody really had both a budget and a âveryâ expensive DAC, couldnât hear the difference - so even if there is a difference, it might be way too subtle. I cannot imagine a significant change, nor could I find a scientific explanation as to how the soundstage gets bigger - it could be on a neurological level, who knowsâŚ
1 Like
These are entry level DACs, where I agree with you when you say that you hardly notice any tonal differences.
But trust the people who say that there are bigger differences up there.
Especially when it comes to the imaging of the voices and instruments together with the sound behavior and the size of the room.
In addition, the naturalness of the sound, the reverberation and the smallest details in the recording area.
All of this opens up completely new horizons if you invest more money in appropriate equipment chains.
But explaining that is theoretical; Take your time and go to a good hifi dealer you trust and listen to the headphones that are expensive and paired with equivalent DAC / AMP devices.
If you still think that there are no differences;
Well, then I did everything wrong, or so did other HiFi professionals.
3 Likes
The people that have access to those are either âreviewersâ that get them for free. OR personally bought them but then they will be hit with purchase justification bias. And sadly I have no access to any hifi stores in Sweden with any decent stuffâŚ
The Ares II is $700 (by memory, might not be right), so not an overly expensive Dac, but I understand your position. As @voja states, ears can be different and subjective.
But I could also be advocating that IEMâs are the same and no different from each other and you would rightly disagree; we are in the realm of diminishing returns, but there are value to gain from experimenting with Dacs. I was like âwooooowâ when I heard my Ares II for the first time, the difference was so clear and improved, that it blew me away. It is an investment I am so glad, I decided to make.
The right Dac has a far from subtle difference and my best advice would be to try it out.
3 Likes
Interesting discussion. While I agree that different gear can make significant changes to the sound and I believe some or many people on this forum can hear and describe those, I am sadly or luckily not one of them.
I spent some money in attempt to test my hearing and end up with the gear that is far above what I can appreciate.
I think everyone is doing what seems best to meet the needs regardless if that means a chain for 30k or 300 euro.
On certain day I can enjoy music more on my blon 03 than on my focal clears or eikons but it doesnât mean those are better or worse subjectively.
I am still buying gear mostly IEMs now but just for fun of playing with something new or experience different sound signature.
I guess it all comes down to the use case. I preffer just hit the play button put hp on based on the mood a listen. Not to hear everything but to enjoy music.
4 Likes
Sometimes to make up the several thousands (or hundreds) of dollars spent on expensive gear your brain has to compensate and be convinced that there is a difference, a positive difference. Imagine investing a large amount of money into something that makes no difference, how would that make you feel about the money that you spent? This is something that I can understand on a psychological and neurological level. So when you go on to buy a 6000 dollar DAC, you say to yourself âwell, the manufacturer priced this product at this price for a reason and I can hear itâ, it wouldnât make sense that it would cost that much and not make a difference⌠It is what it is.
Your brain can make up the difference in order to make it seem like the purchase was worth it and that you needed it.
1 Like
Post-purchase justification in a nutshell.
âIt is a common phenomenon after people have invested a lot of time, money, or effort in something to convince themselves that it must have been worth it. Many decisions are made emotionally, and so are often rationalized retrospectively in an attempt to justify the choice.â
4 Likes
I do agree with that. Selfjustification is super powerfull not only for 6000$ dac purchase but in many situations in life.
It is the same in my case I can justify stupit spending just because I want to try it and bla bla.
There is nice book on that topic âMistakes were made, but not by meâ.
On the other hand if you have money and such dac or whatever is what you want than I have no problem with that.
People should know themself and be willing to admit mistakes if they make some and not to sell the reasons to other people why there are no mistakes.
1 Like
There you have it, knew that it existed in psychology =) Thanks!
Itâs all common knowledge that hardcore audiophiles reject because, you know⌠truth hurts. It hurts the wallet specifically. Once you reveal it you can get a ban or just be discriminated - audiophiles are no easy people. Tbh rarely any of them are truly passionate about the music on its own,
Now if you can imagine that your brain makes up the âdifferenceâ, then you can have a basic understanding of how an average audiophile could hear the âsignificantâ difference. Itâs not about the amount of money, but about the value of money. If you worked really hard or saved up 300 bucks for an amp/dac, then it can also be applied. Same principal.
1 Like
Outside of some interesting analog, a lot of the AKM or sabre DACs are like this. R2R non oversampling DACs literally sound different because you donât have to worry about the quantization noise/error. Iâll admit I have 4 delta sigma DACs and 3 R2R DACs. I can tell the R2Râs apart pretty easily and accurately, but the delta sigma DACs? You have to spend A LOT for them to differentiate and improve themselves.
So that quoted text⌠youâre half right. There are a lot of manufacturers that will do an entry/mid tier project and market like a high end product. Donât believe me? Walk into a Best Buy and tell someone Bose sucks⌠youâll get reaction (and Iâm sorry they donât know better). And honestly, if you canât hear the difference and youâre happy with your gear, be happy. For us that hear a difference⌠being happy/content is still a chase.
7 Likes
Can it be applied for people who believe the opposite?
If you canât hear any difference between 2 dacs you heard, then it suddenly applies for all dacs and all people and you find proof of that online and try to sell your idea of all dacs sounding the same, as the truth.
Instead of accepting you may be wrong.
Post-purchase justification is very well known fact, that we all do in various amounts and various products, but the more expensive the more we do it. But it is not the same as saying, that all dacs sound the same and that all that buy dacs and say they can hear a difference are either lying to themselves or to other people in order to not look like a fool.
It is fine to say, that you canât hear a difference yourself or that you donât want to pay above a certain level for audio gear. But pursuading an idea saying, that something is not true and other people are fooling themselves, just because YOU canât experience the same, well then I think it is yourself you are fooling.
Just my 2 cents.
7 Likes
of course it goes both ways, anyone denying one of the ways is just being hypocritical.
1 Like
Trust your ears and thatâs it. Just focus on your ears and music.
Thatâs why I also support the other side. If you are convinced there is a difference, there actually will be a difference. And if others donât hear it, dismiss their opinion, itâs your ears - trust them and nobody else.
At the end of the day, I focus on myself, I think more people should do that⌠there are too many audiophile wars, there should be more music listening and enjoying, thatâs what this hobby should be about =)
3 Likes
I like joe-n-tell and his speaker leaderboard.
1 Like
never seen this dude before but he cracks me the f upâŚ
3 Likes
I had to check if I accidentally sped up the video.
I lost it when he smelled the phones 