Was more referring to the amp. I suggested above a Soekris 1321 with G111 would be more neutral, and the pairing would be transparent but a step up in every way than a, for example, JDS Atom stack
That’s why I ask, because I don’t agree. I don’t think good measurement means transparent, an sth like a THX 789 is a perfect example. An amp like the RNHP will be more musical but it isn’t necessarily distorted.
Also not necessarily, a warmer DAC can be paired with a dryer more analytical amp. And because of synergy, a ‘neutral’ stack isn’t necessarily more versatile than a warmer stack. For example, again, the Ares II + G111 stack pairs well with a lot of headphones, from brighter Beyers to warmer Senns. Yet, in my opinion both don’t sound as good on a clinical stack.
I am not sure if you can use actual monetary value to measure whether something is better. I mean, is the 6XX 20 times better than an Apple earbuds? Again, it is my opinion that an entry stack, whilst liveable, doesn’t exactly sound great.
I am not OP but I can only say that’s not my case. I like many others also began from nothing, and whilst I don’t have higher end stuff to compare I never love the entry level stack as something doesn’t sound good enough.
Sure. All I can say is that if I could start over again I would skip all the entry stuff, I’ve personally wasted too much money on it. But I do agree I’ve learnt a lot hearing the entry level gear because they are cheap so it allows me to try different stuff and find out what I like. Simply jumping on one entry stack, imo, doesn’t allow you to do that.
789 does a great job looking good on paper, that’s about it. To me the neve is a fairly higher class of amp, but depends on the headphones and synergy
The bigger problem is that you need to evaluate the chain as a final result, not by individual components to get the desired result imo, so that involves judging the synergy of the amp, dac, and the headphones together. There chains out there that do a better job of being an all rounder, but generally most chains have specific things they just work well with, and things they don’t, so ideally you want to already know the direction you are going in, and if you don’t that can make trying to prep for source gear pretty hard imo
Eh, I still think an entry stack is still worth hearing for a bit and then moving up from. You will handicap yourself by staying with an entry level stack and not upgrading or by buying all the entry level stacks, but it can be worthwhile to just pick an entry level stack that sounds appealing to you and go for it, then upgrade later on, and better realize what you really gained from the upgrade
If I understand correctly, you seem to be suggesting it is worthwhile to spend some time on an entry stack as a point of reference and upgrade in order to help train one’s critical listening and to understand what’s not good enough about an entry stack, which I definitely agree. And I should clarify that if that’s the case in effect one would be spending 200USD (which he can later sell on) as some sort of education. I just disagree with the view that an entry stack sounds great anyway and a 1300USD stack is not that better.
sounds like you both agree with my points about the journey being just as important as end-game gear. like you said it would be nice to skip to better gear but u probably needed the cheaper gear to form that opinion. at the very least you find what you like or don’t like in a given sound signature.
I think somewhere you guys forgot he is coming from onboard audio… while you are free to judge budget stacks harshly, most agree they are worlds better than onboard therefore present greater value than most other options simply from diminishing returns.
wouldn’t u agree an atom stack is a larger gap of performance from onboard audio than the 500 amp is compared to atom? that’s my opinion at least.
I own an atom stack and 2x E30/L30 stacks and while they do sound a bit different its not the night and day difference you get when you finally get an external stack vs your MOBO.
And while I am currently upgrading to Geshelli JNOG2 / Erish I will likely keep my L30 on the desk for IEM’s and my 560’s since they aren’t balanced.
would i have been better to start with that? i don’t think so, i needed the other gear to be better informed on what i’d like to improve moving forward.
I just gifted an old Audioengine D1 to my brother who has some hearing damage from military and even tho he expected no improvement he had to call me and tell me it was night and day. and he only has my old Tin T2’s and crappy bose desktop speakers. he said it was staggering. does that mean he wants better gear? no he’s quite content.
love all this insight i feel like i’m learning a lot with you guys
Since it wasn’t mentioned in the first few posts I did somewhat skip over that, was too focused on answering the main question and also about headphone upgrade advice. But if he had immediate plans to upgrade right away to higher tier headphones, I would suggest just skipping the budget stacks if you wanted to get a satisfactory experience with higher end headphones. But if they were going to stick with their akg for a bit and upgrade down the line then yes a semi budget stack makes sense (still would go for 103s + allo rev over the 200 buck stacks). The value thing I would disagree with as it really depends on the headphone, I’d say that some of the budget stacks with something like a clear offers you less value per dollar than some of the higher end options actually, but with a k702 then yes the more lower midrange stacks will offer better value per dollar
Not always, depends on the headphone. Perhaps for the 702 but not for something like a clear or t1.2
Generally that’s been the case for most of the budget stacks imo, they become much more different and impactful to the overall sound when you move up (but that doesn’t mean it always makes sense to move up depending on the headphones)
I sound like a broken record… he’s not coming from a budget stack he’s coming from onboard and ya a budget stack like atom or e30/l30 does sound great when you compare it to what OP has now… its like we are having 2 conversations lol
You’ll get no argument from me that a more expensive stack can be a lot better but what does he have to compare that improvement to??? thats all i keep saying…
i’m really glad i’ve spent several months with my current gear, sounds like i need to A/B the atom vs L30 a bit more tho, i never noticed huge differences at the time but i wasn’t too critical. both sound great compared to onboard…
still super excited for my geshelliu upgrade which was suggested to me by this forum so thanks!
I mostly agree here. An entry stack for me would serve the purpose of training one’s ability to appreciate differences and why a better DAC/amp sounds better. I just thought that there are also other people who care less about the gear itself and just want a good stack within their budget for some music enjoyment, and don’t want to deal with the hassle to buy/sell, so might as well go for the most recommended equipments within that budget and skip the stuff below. I don’t know if that’s the case for OP, but I thought there’s nothing wrong with this approach.
I get your point, and I realise I initially was speaking too much from my own experience here. For me, I came from onboard audio too, and I kept buying and selling the 99USD, 199USD, 299USD stacks until I land on the stuff the OP has chosen. Before this it never sounds right to me and I was always looking to upgrade until now. Hence initially I said that for me personally, if I could start over again I’d probably not waste my time and money on the entry stuff because I was just constantly upgrading until sth is good enough. But I also realise, as you remind me, would I be able to train my ability to capture differences if I didn’t go through the journey? Probably no. So for that reason, I think it’s worthwhile to spend some time on an entry level stack, that is, provided one is very keen to train his critical listening.
Gotcha, that’s another thing about expectation, tho I am not sure if it’s exactly always comparable. From onboard audio to an JDS stack is a huge improvement for me, but so was from a JDS stack to, say, Ares II and G111.
If you ever want to go down that line I can highly recommend it. I have one on loan for a bit before it gets shipped off to its intended owner. It’s a really fantastic amp and pairs extremely well with my Harmony Design D90 DAC. Lake People / Violectric sure makes some amazing amplifiers.
I hope you come to like the G111 if you decide on that, should be a great choice if it’s anything like a little brother to the v200.
I like this idea Mon, it takes the strain off my budget and I certainly am getting the advice that stepping up from my Motherboard sound is going to be great and no need to lash out so much outlay when I could go for this and have money spare then to invest in a good pair of headphones.
This is my idea Mochimashu but now having read through the responses I am really learning that maybe I don’t have to shoot so high and really would appreciate a dac and amp which to me comes in around the 500 pounds mark as apposed to the 1200 pounds which I had budgeted for with the ares 11 and the g111
Thank’s Ahobaka, this for my first interaction on this forum has been fantastic, I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread as I am learning one heck of a lot about my perception verses my needs. Overall it’s just given me more to consider before I get into the purchase, I will for sure once I do make the purchase be letting you Guy’s know what I end up with and what my thoughts are on the set up.
Thank you all.
I think either way makes sense. If you want to go up organically so that you can train your listening and to understand the differences, I think the setup M0N recommended is really solid, a Allo DAC and a G103. If you want you can still get a clinical setup like the Atom stack to learn the differences. It all depends on what you wanna achieve really.
This is the third post I’ve seen of people recommending gen to then in brackets don’t buy gen 3. Fully agree and hilarious how bad Beyer ruined that. Hope to see a return to form on the 4th gen.
It’s sad, I really love the 1.2, like how did they screw it up that badly (well it was seemingly done on purpose), would be very nice to see that return to form eventually
Well talk about total confusion now, I started looking into more and more different options regarding getting myself a good amp and dac and weeks later have seen so many different reviews that I am now all over the place in what I want.
The only thing I know for sure is that I will get the HIFIman Sundara headphones
I went to the Audio GD 28.38 then back to the Audio GD 11.38 from here to the JDS labs Ellement 11 and that’s about where I am at the moment.
I think one of the best things about this quest is what you learn along the way, it’s as if the hunt is as good as the capture.
