Yeah, its really weird, I liked the OG, but the HBB retune is quite literally my favorite IEM for music. I still refuse to use IEMs for gaming unless it just happens to be extremely loud in my house, which happens like once a year lol
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Alright - ordered for the cause. Will update with impressions/comparison soon!
Edit: I’m desperately awaiting input from everyone of course, not just Pokrog
Pokrog: I haven’t tried hook-x, I don’t feel like trying IEMS after all except for one that I’ve found on prosettings.net, Tabsen, a 400K dollar winning CS pro uses a custom HRTF hörluchs iem. Over 1k and you have to send them samples of your ear made of special vax by your local audiologist lab.
I’m currently considering the following: either just trying astro a40 and messing with mixamp EQs, or picking up a good deal of only 1k for a Phonitor SE with a dac768.
My questions now: what are the qualities of dac768 for gaming? Seeing my 2 best experiences have been with AK dacs (Cma400i with a90 and hd800, and on stax l700 and 353x a well over 2500 dollar italian dac with akm, it’s on soundnews I belive), I wonder if I’d like em. How do they compare to the top ones like yggdrasil for gaming?
Also, pokrog: you mentioned clocking (in a reddit post), how would you even hook up a clock on xbox? You hate ADI-2, but… doesn’t adi-2 have the best clock the FS for a reasonable price?
How is the big phonitor compared to phonitor SE in terms of the crossfeed options, could it be a good idea to maybe buy the big one and a dt 1990 or your preferred he560 hifiman? Or was it the He6 you preferred for gaming? Someone on reddit said it had a “3 blob hifiman” imaging, not special.
So is that a good idea, OR is it better to get HD800S and Phonitor SE?
Another bummer is that I’ll need a Vertex 2 from HDFURY to get a proper spdif without lag, I’m not sure if I’d want to trust a random audio isolator to be under 1 ms.
I’ve never heard a single Hifiman with 3 blob imaging. That’s just untrue. I personally would take a properly set up HE6 over everything. I have a feeling the DCA Expanse and Stealth could be contenders, but that’s a huge amount to spend on gaming when source upgrades can be just as important if your source gear isn’t specifically tuned towards gaming.
ADI-2 is dog shit. It just is. It doesn’t have good anything. It’s honestly just not even debatable imo, but at the same time, I’m exhausted on the topic.
I personally never liked the Phonitor XE, the crossfeed and angle was kinda gimmicky and really did nothing but hurt absolute placement in gaming.
1990 is irrelevant when the T1.2 exists, its hands down the best beyer.
EQ is a slippery slope when imaging and staging accuracy is important. All EQ is going to introduce phase distortion at different points and the more EQ, the more phase distortion. You can sidestep that by taking measurements of your headphones with your EQ and compensate, but it does kinda require measurements to do properly.
DAC wise, I really hate to say it, but a lot of the measurement chasing DACs seem to be more suited for gaming strictly because of low noise and really high amounts of channel separation and cleaning up phase noise and jitter with a DDC has been the best route I’ve found for the most accurate imaging in games. You want an instant forget it combo? Get a Gustard X18 and a Holo Red and feed the X18 i2s from the Red. I haven’t tried the Red, but I guarantee its a safe bet and the X18 fed i2s by a DDC with isolated power is absurdly precise. But that combo still doesn’t solve the audio from an Xbox unless you feed just the DAC optical from your monitor, that is literally the only option and it eliminates the ability to use most DDCs unless you go with something like a MUTEC MC-1.1+(or their higher end options) with optical in. The X18 is really solid on its own fed by optical and is probably about as good as you can get in the Xbox situation. I know you don’t want to hear it, but the Xbox is the limiting factor here.
Amp pairing is going to be fairly loose, but you want as much control as you can get here. I think something like a Cayin IHA-6 could be a solid pairing with whatever headphones you want, but especially a pair of HD800s with the current drive and the fact that the IHA-6 helps with depth but has a more narrow width which could balance the staging out a little on the HD800s while also giving them the current drive that they just absolutely love and pair exceptionally well with.
Feed optical to an X18 into an IHA-6 into HD800s and you’ll probably have a really good experience but I really wouldn’t push too hard for more out of an Xbox. You could push for the MUTEC as an option to take in optical and output AES (I’ve heard the AES can be pretty decent on the MUTEC stuff but I have no experience there) to the X18 but any gains you might get are most likely going to be very small for the extra ~$600 it would cost.
PC build time? lol
Thanks for the advice regarding clock, I may look into it at one point. I’m definitely not going PC, it’ll always have the possibility of hacks running on pc, whereas you cannot run hacks on Xb1 and above online, that is just a fact that most people fail to realise, I’m pretty much an expert on this subject. There are of course ways, many ways to cheat on console – I should know cause I’m one of them who exploits them, like with KB and mouse usage via XIM adapter --, and the dreaded computer vision aimbot, but the former is very mild, the latter is very, very VERY rare, probably isn’t possible on the old game I play (COD:AW), and can be counteracted by switching up the skins. PC always gives you far more options, which is NOT a good thing in a competitive enviroment when you’re a perfectionist as well.
Back to audio, my latest question: if I list on rtings.com the most accurate bass, mids I get 1. hifiman xs 2. a40tr for open back bass and audio technica r70 for best open back mids. Now, here’s my question: would it make sense to get 3 seperate headphones, one for best bass, one for best mids, one for best highs for gaming, depending on where you’re needed audio cues are located in the frequeny response? Or is this a dumb idea because the FR needs to be viewed as a whole?
Edit: As for your preferred hifiman… cool, but… aside from needing a nuclear powerplant, the problem is, it’s no longer sold for the most part and I hate used. What’s your 2nd pick excluding beyers for gaming below 2k?
Edit 2: I need more advice on amps too… suppose crossfeed is gimmicky, isn’t 1k a good deal on the amp-dac combo version of phonitor SE? It’s an ultra-powerful ultra neutral amp and probably a good enough dac, right? You suggested a used “oppo” or some sort of amp sounding like that, but it costs 1250 as opposed to 1k where I am, and would it even have the power and neutrality of a phonitor SE, aside from also lacking a dac?
Can attest to this remark as well… Only some sennheisers had some issues with this that I have tested. Gaming headsets have this problem exponentially.
Haven’t even gotten around to these due to the price to begin with… I can’t recommend such high price tags to a gamer no matter what, that’s just absurd and you gotta add synergy amps and dacs to that too…
I had it for a little while, good for EQ and other such uses but for gaming, hard no
I mean, it’s a bit subjective though isn’t it? 1990 is more in your face and smaller staged so for some I can see it being more worth while… plus if T1.2 has any defective problems like the headband going out you best be prepared to pay like $300+. I adore my T1.2 it’s an absolute monster but it also demands proper equipment to make it sing while 1990 isn’t as temperamental… Granted if I am being dead honest… you can get like 90% of the performance of a 1990 from a DT 880 despite the fact that DT 880 can be bought for like $120 or less if you dig around and since it can be 600 ohms the 880 on tube amps is absolutely beautiful
Agreed, been tinkering with this myself trying to dig more into EQ but if you don’t do it right even slightly everything goes out of balance and messes up other traits.
I mean, anything that prioritizes clean accurate detail retrieval works… Early on I think best items to adopt from my experience so far are like the Donald Dac or JDS. I despise Topping with a passion for just how sterile they are and they do tend to screw up beyers… I know some people may enjoy that setup but it’s just horrid to me and I can’t even play games with those style of setups.
Can attest that this thing is a beast in it’s own right but I just think that considering post around $300+/unit gains are rather negligible in gaming(due to limitations in several areas) it makes it a bit redundant to pursue higher setups such as this less you are pursuing music and audiophilia… speaking from someone who is constantly just sitting with other pieces of equipment. Also since consoles are involved not all equipment is going to work with it either.
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Let me think…
Meze 109 PRO haven’t tried their planars yet
Hifiman XS or Arya(preferably stealth magnets)
Audio-Technica such as R70x or AD2000x warning that these are extremely thin sounding
Focal Clear MG can also use Elex if you want a budget option to get you most of the way to this headphone could also swing Elegia
Sennheiser HD 800S or 660s maybe 660S2 which just came out. Can still do 600 or 650/6xx which work fine
Dan Clark Aeons 2 / Noires
Shure 1540 if you want a bassier open back or 1840
Audeze LCD-2 or LCD-X with EQ profiling
Though overall, Something I am noticing from your trial here is that the headphones you are trying are all open back… and you make remarks that the bass is missing. Perhaps try some more closed backs see if this resolves the problem… as I am starting to wonder if this may be a sound presentation problem not so much the signature. Try like the penrose you mention or a 177x GO or a neuman… get one of those that is still fairly neutral/reference and clear yet closed see if that helps you place things a bit better… also being closed naturally makes the bass more forward despite the signature so this may be a key to fixing the issue
As for amps and dacs, I really wouldn’t stress about this… I would encourage you to stop worrying so much about “neutral” sounding amps and dacs or their respective measurements and go with what sounds good and performs well… Those amps and dacs like topping more often than not from my experience just devastate sound signatures while it may be good for musical production it really isn’t all that enjoyable for gaming. If you really want a higher end set go for it but keep in mind it really isn’t that necessary… I get just as much performance out of my liquid platinums and asgard than I do out of something such as my Violectric or other alternatives it’s just the returns are slightly better but not enough so that I can justify that additional cost at all… The only reason I went higher is because I love music and in more casual games it has more benefits.
Well, I used to think I’m missing bass, but my logitech g335 simply starts from 100HZ and is more decent to me than Meze 109, Hifiman Ananda and Ad2000x. The former two I tried from my motherboard only though. I tried some Focal, might’ve been Elex or maybe regular Clear, but it was 1k so it was probably elex.
Now I’m thinking it’s mids I need and a proper amping for a HD800S. Regular HD800 sounded more pleasant to my ears, though also little use due to what I’m assuming improper driving from a CMA400i.
I’ve been thinking about the R70x, looks very good on paper, has the most accurate mids on rtings.com which reminds me…
Could you answer this? If I list the most accurate mids, highs and bass on rtings, would it make sense to get a seperate headphone for each of the 3, depending on whether a particular gunshot or footstep’s signature within the sound frequency, or is this idea futile? Hifiman XS was listed as best imaging, best bass, and among the best highs on rtings out of open back wired over ears… BUT I’m a bit scared of disappointment, cause I’ve tried ananda which is supposed to be a “step up” from it, but it sounded nothing special, and slightly piercing just like the dt 1990. Though I’ve tried ananda only from motherboard, while I tried DT from a real amp. The only headphone that sounded different and decent to me besides my 1st hd800s was the edition 11 ultrasone I auditioned recently alongside the ananda. And the super scary part is, even on 95x, l700 and even 009 electrostats I could hear decent sound only when connecting an italian dac/player costing 3k, without that, they sound pretty much like the same as any headphone does to me.
I will say this, trying any form of headphone going through a motherboard especially in higher ends is going to do nothing but produce poor results and a sound signature that isn’t really all that close to it’s actual sound. There is a lot of distortion and problems with running just off a motherboard which is why it is typically accepted and recommended that you use an amp and a dac… as the price goes up on the headphone so does the required amp and dac synergy topology… while you can drive headphones from cheaper hardware there is very noticeable changes in sound profile when you use a high grade headphone going from a cheap unit like say at a $100 to something in the $400. At the same time, some amps and dacs just do not sound good or work the way you want them to despite being higher priced
sounds like the Clear at that point, Focal are quite fussy headphones with amps and dacs. Elex is much cheaper than the Clear though.
Going to quote M0N on this as he has made a remark about this particular unit
“cma400i can power most headphones just fine. It’s got a bit smoother thicker sound but is still fairly neutral ish, perhaps leaning slightly warm. It’s a very impressive amp and the dac inside is also very good. Soundstage is accurate perhaps slightly wider and also placement is good.”
However, the 400i there is a combo unit of which it is one of those that focuses more on it’s amplifier than it’s dac. If you were to upgrade anything for a 400i in this case it would be a respective Dac or going to a respective dedicated amp and dedicated dac. I have tried the 400i myself, and I can say that it definitely doesn’t strike any wrong boxes either so I wouldn’t call this improper driving however, it might not particularly agree on brighter headphones being it leans thicker and warmer which is the opposite of brighter headphones. I can definitely say that a dedicated discrete dac is going to sound noticeably different than using the internal dac on the 400i likely quite a bit better at that.
I would never encourage something like this for several reasons.
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RTINGS reviews are, in my opinion, a complete joke and should be taken with an extreme grain of salt. It can provide you with good useful information on the more technical side of things but that’s about it… as for rating headphones? Hard pass
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I would never encourage buying multiple headphones for gaming specifically for each frequency response… headphones aren’t all frequency response, they have their own presentations, imaging, soundstage, layering, detail, etc on top of this, while you could buy a headphone that is say very strong in the mid range it could be lacking in the treble which just gives you a mixed bag experience rather then what you need… in this regard in my opinion it would just be a waste of money. Now, if you wanted to simply test to see precisely what sound traits you need then sure provided you can return the cans after your done.
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the simple fact that rtings rates xs so high despite how many headphones are out there and be considered superior, some would argue Arya and others are better than the XS as well, just shows it’s purely subjective. I would not encourage trusting those ratings at all.
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Not quite sure where this Ananda is better than XS came from but absolutely not in my opinion and I have sat with both for several months, XS is a very good headphone in it’s own right with better soundstage and overall performance over Ananda and compared to Sundara… XS just kind of walks over it. The one that I tried that is above the XS was the Aryas with stealth being more fun sounding… of course above these you have the headphones HEK but these are way above the price point. If I were to encourage a high budget hifiman to check out… it would be XS or the Arya… Sundara and 400SE get recommended a lot though because their price/performance is pretty insane
DT 1990 has a lot of brightness that’s for sure but it responds rather poorly to any amp/dac setup that can make them sound potentially brighter. Ananda definitely isn’t going to sound right off a motherboard, I tried them off my own and it sounded awful… congested, horrible layering, the speed was all off, the impact practically died, soundstage was a mess, etc
Considering just how different all that is, those should be pretty large changes in sound traits so that is rather concerning
Unfortunately, I won’t be able to speak on this one since I don’t believe in importing my headphones and it doesn’t appear to be available state side
All right…
How about this… Amp for HD800S: Phonitor SE, big phonitors, HDV820, Soekris 2521 aio, how would these compete? The Soekris is an interesting one, I wonder how good the amp section is… also, how good are the DACs in Phonitors and HDVA820? Probably not too good, but can their inferiority to dedicated dacs be compensated by the manufacturer’s intended aio synergy? Would not a big phonitor allow one to have great imaging on headphone on games that don’t have headphone options and are optimized for speakers, or is it a mere gimmick, or perhaps a good addition, but more for music and not games? One more question, how is the crossfeed/ish tech 3d air option in the small zen dac things, could that be a hidden gem and a cheap phonitor alternative for gaming, perhaps even better suited for games like older cods?
I cannot speak to any of the other questions, but I can offer some input on the soekris Dac’s amp section, since I used it for several days waiting on my headphone amp.
The amp side of a 2541 is, in a word, competent.
I didn’t have any complaints, and sitting at my desk and testing it again, I still don’t. It’s pretty solid, especially considering it’s built into a dac.
However, the down side is that there doesn’t really seem to be anything special about it either. It is neither as detailed, nor a dynamic as the V281, which is the only piece of kit I could actually offer a comparison on. Decay seems a little truncated, attack just doesn’t have the impact, bass just isn’t as -present- and treble feels just a squeeze sharp, all as compared to the 281. Imaging maybe just a little blurrier, but very track dependent, stage doesn’t seem much different, but since I’m still using elegias, I expect those are what is holding the overall spacial presentation back at this point.
In games (I don’t play competitively, so take this with a grain of salt) it is pretty hard to tell the difference. The only shoot-‘em-up kind of game I play is Deep Rock Galactic, so spacial sound is both real good (as sound engines go for games, they really really nailed it in this game) and more than precise enough, when I hear a glyphid trumpet somewhere off in the dark, my ears can tell me right where to find it, when I hear a dwarf call out “For Karl” I instantly know just how far away he is, and in which direction. Often, I can even tell elevation to a pretty good degree, which is a real neat trick for a stereo headphone if you ask me.
That spacial presentation -IN GAME- doesn’t seem to change much whether my headphone is plugged into my amp, or if it is plugged into the amp side of the Soekris dac.
However, do bear in mind the limits of my ability to measure some of these differences - Elegia is a solid headphone, and a steal at its current prices, but it is easy to drive, both low in impedance and relatively sensitive. It is also not on anyone’s list of top competitive cans for your application.
At some point I really do wonder at whether or not there is any further advantage to squeeze out of your audio setup for game performance. Once you reach a certain plateau of spacial representation, coupled with clarity in the frequency’s useful to your game, it seems to me even better audio gear won’t improve the performance. Once you can pinpoint a reload, footstep, gunshot, etc. how much more can the sound do for you?
Not much, if I could achieve it, I’d be happy.
I created a new topic in the DAC section, as I now got the Ultrasone 11. Please help!