Looking for the best AMP + DAC for Focal Elex within $500

[Alex]

Well first you have the source. We’ll call them “lossless masters”.

So now let’s assume the DSD and PCM (and PCM can refer to MP3, M4A, AAC, Opus, FLAC, ALAC, raw LPCM, etc…) that the artist or studio releases are both directly converted from the master. Why would you grab the DSD and then convert it down to PCM when you can acquire the PCM version more directly? More conversion steps can only harm quality. I can only see a point if you don’t trust the competence of the artist or studio when they made their MP3/M4As or something.

I can see a point if you had a huge library of DSD music and there is no other formats offered by the author/studio or you simply don’t want to re-buy the track in it’s PCM form, and you unfortunately have no way of handling DSD. That case meets the “technological limitations” I mentioned.

So the sense behind down-converting falls down to availability and saving money.

There’s zero sense whatsoever in up-converting though, you gain nothing by doing it. I’ve seen people who think they’re doing a good job converting MP3s to FLACs and I’m just like “Bro you’re just making it take-up way more space than it needs to, this is pointless”.

The vast majority of music is only really available in MP3-320 or M4A-256 (I personally prefer M4A). Those are by no means bad quality (in fact in blind testing the vast majority of people cannot discern an MP3-320 from a lossless), but I can imagine it being rather sort-of disappointing to audio enthusiasts. I swear that FLAC/ALAC sounds better in some way but others would disagree, so maybe it’s placebo.

If I could, I’d probaby build a library of nothing but lossless PCM and DSD files, but that’s just unrealistic given the way music is actually distributed for common consumer playback, and I can understand the advantages of sacrificing a miniscule amount of quality to make the filesize a tenth of it’s original size. (FLAC compression is actually quite awesome middleground – compression without loss, basically the audio version of PNG image compression, the only thing sacrificed being the time it takes to process the compression which is inconsequential. “Compressed Lossless” is a thing and there’s no sonic reason to prefer the ALAC approach which is both lossless AND uncompressed and therefore massive).

I’ll also say that out of lossy formats, I kinda hope that Opus really takes off. High-quality Opus is better than MP3/M4A but not much larger (if at all, depending on the source). It’s just newer and hasn’t really taken off yet, I suppose the launching of the AV1 format (royalty-free competitor for H.265) may change that though as it primarily uses Opus for audio.

So if it were up to me… I’d probably have a library of compressed FLAC for lossless PCM, High-Quality Opus for lossy, and DSD of whatever happens to be available in DSD.

But, things just aren’t made available that way.

Agree on MQA being music DRM – it’s an excuse to lock down the platform. I only want the MQA version of the D90 because I want a do-it-all machine if I’m paying as much as I am for the DAC.

[M0N]

@Alex

Why would you grab the DSD and then convert it down to PCM when you can acquire the PCM version more directly

Typically because the dsd master is different. I will grab which one sounds better to me, I am not attached to a certain format. As long as it’s a genuine lossless file I am just fine

@Alex

There’s zero sense whatsoever in up-converting though, you gain nothing by doing it. I’ve seen people who think they’re doing a good job converting MP3s to FLACs and I’m just like “Bro you’re just making it take-up way more space than it needs to, this is pointless”

Yes, I just fail to understand where this comes into the discussion, nobody here has suggested this or advocated for it

@Alex

The vast majority of music is only really available in MP3-320 or M4A-256 (I personally prefer M4A).

In like iTunes yes, but for are forgetting CDs and vinyl which both have better sound quality with more releases on them. I’m sitting above 70k lossless tracks in my library, with perhaps 2k mp3 or lossy tracks that were never released on lossless mainly from very small artists from the 2010s, but now even pretty small artists are releasing in lossless now. It’s not hard to find tbh

@Alex

Those are by no means bad quality (in fact in blind testing the vast majority of people cannot discern an MP3-320 from a lossless), but I can imagine it being rather sort-of disappointing to audio enthusiasts.

Yes, one you know what the lossless track sounds like and have decent gear (I can do this on a ksc75) you can easily tell the difference. If you ask most of the at least semi experienced people on here they can confirm as well. Weather you can hear a difference between a 16 bit 44.1 or a 24 192 or dsd is another story. As long as it’s a genuine lossless file its good in my eyes

[Alex]

A CD is just a physical format – on the CD there is usually just MP3 or WAV files burned to it, pretty much always 44.1KHz at 16bits. CDs are typically not better quality than any digital release… as it really IS a digital release itself.

I’m willing to bet the MQA isn’t really “mastered differently” so much as just being passed through an algorithm. Or worse, just passed through an EQ or filter or something. There’s too much music on Tidal for me to believe anyone is actually personally working with the tracks. Could be wrong I guess, but that’s how I feel. I’d bet DSD mastering is often the same deal. I could believe it if the artist themselves are taking the time to master differently for different releases, but not if Tidal is just grabbing copies of everything and claiming they’re mastered better. But this is where my understanding ends and enters the world of business and such rather than computer science stuff, so I’ll just not comment there.

[M0N]

@Alex

on the CD there is usually just MP3 or WAV files burned to it, pretty much always 44.1KHz at 16bits. CDs are typically not better quality than any digital release… as it really IS a digital release itself.

Commercial cds are pretty much always lossless data, that you can then rip to a lossless format like wave or flac. A cd is going to sound better than a lossy counterpart. I was just using cd for simplicity’s sake in showing that lossless audio is easily attainable for most music

@Alex

I’m willing to bet the MQA isn’t really “mastered differently” so much as just being passed through an algorithm. Or worse, just passed through an EQ or filter or something. There’s too much music on Tidal for me to believe anyone is actually personally working with the tracks. Could be wrong I guess, but that’s how I feel.

Some are mastered differently and some are not, but you are correct in that they are being filtered and recreated differently to meet the mqa standard. Trying to recreate lossless data with a lossy file doesn’t make sense to me in modern day tbh

@Alex

I’d bet DSD mastering is often the same deal.

Typically releases on SACD are in fact mastered differently (although some are converted to DXD (PCM) for mastering and back into dsd so that’s another topic). Releases on SACD were meant for a higher tier of market when sony designed the format, so typically their mastering was held to a higher quality than some cd counterparts (and that’s why I prefer them regardless of if they are dsd or not, I just want the better engineer mastering them if they do in fact sound better). Sometimes some more recent DSD releases are just rips of the master tape with better hardware so that comes out sounding better than some cd’s as well

@Alex

I could believe it if the artist themselves are taking the time to master differently for different releases, but not if Tidal is just grabbing copies of everything and claiming they’re mastered better

Yeah not the biggest fan of tidal lol. If you want good lossless steaming qobuz is a good alternative, just lossless red book cd quality streaming with no bs

[Alex]

Lossless yes, WAV files are lossless 16-bit 44.1 or 48k. Although I was more thinking in reference to what the point in having a DAC that can handle 24-bit above 48KHz is… most music isn’t produced in anything above 16bit @ 48KHz and what you find above that is often just pointlessly up-converted. The only time PCM that is greater than 16-bit 48KHz makes any sense is if it’s been converted from a DSD or something.

I can think of SOME scenarios that go against this, like the audio tracks in BluRay releases can have some pretty damn high-res audio. I have run into 24-bit audio on BluRay. That’s one reason I want a DAC that does basically any PCM conceivable, even though I know most music won’t take advantage of anything beyond the 16-bit 48K.

Qobuz sounds good to me, although a lot of my music appears to not be available on Qobuz. I really should just buy a CD player and start buying physical discs again I suppose.

About Tidal, is there even a way to download the MQA files or are they the type to try to prevent that? Do you have to download their program to even listen to them I’m guessing? Because I’d be surprised if browsers know how to deal with them. Is there any information on how to produce your own MQA files or is it a really shady and protected format? I see that NCH Switch doesn’t have it on their list of workable formats and they usually have pretty much everything. I’m just asking because if it’s streamable at all through a browser I’d be able to use debugging tools to locate the source and download it easily, but I’m going to assume it’s more complicated than that.

Basically, I sense snake-oil product branding.

[M0N]

@Alex

most music isn’t produced in anything above 16bit @ 48KHz and what you find above that is often just pointlessly up-converted

A fair amount of music is produced in a 32 bit high sample rate workspace. I personally master in 24/96 for my clients. They typically deliver me a 32/192 or 32/384 file. I then deliver them a 24/96 and the traditional 16/44.1

@Alex

About Tidal, is there even a way to download the MQA files or are they the type to try to prevent that? Do you have to download their program to even listen to them I’m guessing?

They don’t want you trying to rip their files lol, again DRM for music. You need a MQA compatible dac to unfold them properly

@Alex

Is there any information on how to produce your own MQA files or is it a really shady and protected format?

You are forced to work with them, they want to protect the format and also licensing. DSD is similar in that it’s sonys format and if you want to rip a sacd with DSD you need a hacked PS3 to extract the DSD off of the disc.

As you say I would just suggest sticking to lossless pcm without drm lol

[Alex]

A fair amount of music is produced in a 32 bit high sample rate workspace. I personally master in 24/96 for my clients. They typically deliver me a 32/192 or 32/384 file. I then deliver them a 24/96 and the traditional 16/44.1

Maybe today that’s more common? My observations could be colored by the fact that I’m not really a consumer of current music so much as from at least 10 years ago (usually older). I could see better standards being employed with newly produced music I figure.

Guess I should’ve just looked at wikipedia on the MQA question:

MQA-encoded content can be carried via any lossless file format such as FLAC or ALAC; hence, it can be played back on systems either with or without an MQA decoder. In the latter case, the resulting audio has easily identifiable high-frequency noise occupying 3 LSB bits, thus limiting playback on non-MQA devices effectively to 13 bit. MQA claims that nevertheless the quality is higher than “normal” 48/16, because of the novel sampling and convolution processes.[14]

So it doesn’t have it’s own container or anything, alright. I was expecting .mqa files.

Wow. Have they locked it down so hard that no software decoders even exist? Jeeze.

Yeah I didn’t really plan to get Tidal. I want to own my music and don’t want to pay $20 a month. I was only curious about trying to own MQA music, like if I could just outright buy MQA tracks and download them to my PC, but it sounds like you can’t do that.

It’s more of the whole internet trying to turn buy-it-for-life into subscription services. MS with Windows 10, Adobe with CC, Office 365, etc etc. Sickening really. I just want to own the product, not pay a monthly fee for the rest of my life and lose access to my shit the moment I miss a payment.

If an MQA master is truly better though, you could probably use your MQA DAC to decode it and then intercept the output and convert to lossless PCM. But I doubt many MQA tracks are better enough to warrant that.

[M0N]

@Alex

Maybe today that’s more common? My observations could be colored by the fact that I’m not really a consumer of current music so much as from at least 10 years ago (usually older). I could see better standards being employed with newly produced music I figure.

Yeah a 32 bit workspace allows for many benefits for editing but not playback, think of the higher formats like recording at 8k, and while that’s not reasonable for consumption it allows for better editing and production for the final product that will be at 4k (this isn’t exactly the same but I hope it gets the point across. Also a fair amount of master tapes for older albums are being ripped at higher bitrate and sample rate yielding better quality audio for older albums

@Alex

I want to own my music

I’ve got my massive digital collection on servers and thousands of cd’s in my basement lol

@Alex

If an MQA master is truly better though, you could probably use your MQA DAC to decode it and then intercept the output and convert to lossless PCM. But I doubt many MQA tracks are better enough to warrant that.

Yeah I personally find that a regular lossless file actually can outperform mqa at times, really not worth imo. The scary thing is that some artists are only releasing in mqa now and not offering traditional flac anymore which is slightly worrying. But hopefully that will stop, time will tell

[Alex]

I’m betting a lot of the time different formats just sound different, not better. Not interchangeable terms. It’s easy to get someone to think something is higher quality just because they can hear a difference. For some people you can just throw virtual surround on something and they think it sounds better.

Analogy does get the point across – lots of shooting is done on 8k RED cameras for better editing, final production is never that high.

“Better” to me means neutrality and getting as close to source as possible. But that’s just one philosophy and approach I suppose. Some people think it’s fine to butcher things however you want to make it sound to your liking. Plus you have to consider that even the people who made your music were imperfect human beings using their own imperfect equipment and imperfect ears.

Freakin’ servers though dude? Do you have a music hoarding obsession or something? Are you speaking of servers loosely like “it’s more of just a RAID connected to my home network” or like a full-blown 45 Drives kinda thing? I have a 10TB DC HC and can’t imagine totally filling it anytime soon (and when I do it’ll all be anime for the most part).

put it on the internet…

[Andrew_Davis]

@Alex

D90 + RNHP + Clear

That’s a magical setup, if you ask me.

[M0N]

@Alex

I’m betting a lot of the time different formats just sound different , not better. Not interchangeable terms. It’s easy to get someone to think something is higher quality just because they can hear a difference . For some people you can just throw virtual surround on something and they think it sounds better .

Very true, but it’s pretty clearly better if you are comparing a lossless file and a lossly file produced from that lossless file, I don’t really think I can say something I prefer lossy for over lossless. In regards to mastering though you are correct which is better is fairly subjective

@Alex

Plus you have to consider that even the people who made your music were imperfect human beings using their own imperfect equipment and imperfect ears.

Correct, but this in in more regards to the mastering and production now instead of formats

@Alex

Freakin’ servers though dude? Do you have a music hoarding obsession or something?

I got some killer deals from my work when we upgraded our datacenters. I have two servers with 50tb of nvme and 50tb hdd combined. I also have a tape drive which I have archives on. Dell products since that’s what we use at work.

[Andrew_Davis]

@Alex

Freakin’ servers though dude?

M0N does soubd work on the side. I think that mixing and mastering takes lots of disk space.

[M0N]

Well I mean I also have been working doing system administration and cybersecurity (although now I am just essentially upper management) for a long time, I oversee the US division of my company for our security and data/network

I still somewhat wish I decided to pick up those fiber switches just for fun though lol

Also the servers are mostly for hosting stuff and for music, when you have a fair amount of music gear you should have a fair amount of music too lol

I could have gone way overboard on storage but I feel like what I have is very reasonable and I use most of it

[Alex]

@Andrew_Davis

D90 + RNHP + Clear

That’s a magical setup, if you ask me.

I sure hope it is, for the price.

Here I’ve been comparing the D90 to the Matrix X Sabre and going “mAyBe I ShOuLd jUsT sAvE fOr ThAt”, but come on dude, you’re not gonna be able to percieve the inaudidble difference that the analytical equipment audiosciencereview uses can.

I can get too cocked-up in perfectionism and start making financially retarded decisions sometimes. I do hope I’m not doing that here either – but it sounds like D90 is a lot of DAC for the money, as is the RNHP a lot of AMP and the Clear a lot of headphone. I’d be questioning myself if I was spending over $1k for anything though – fortunately through deal hunting I got every component under that though!

@M0N

I got some killer deals from my work when we upgraded our datacenters. I have two servers with 50tb of nvme and 50tb hdd combined. I also have a tape drive which I have archives on. Dell products since that’s what we use at work.

50TB of NVMe?? As in, 100TB total and 50TB of it is NVMe? I must be misunderstanding, you must mean 50TB of combined HDD+NVMe… because 50TB of NVMe would be absurdly expensive.

@M0N

Well I mean I also have been working doing system administration and cybersecurity (although now I am just essentially upper management) for a long time, I oversee the US division of my company for our security and data/network

Funny enough I’m currently wavering between cybersecurity and other computer majors. Computer Science, Software Development, Cyber Security, and Informatics really… every time I feel sure about one I switch though. Gonna have to make-up my mind.

I like the topic of CyberSecurity a lot, heck I’ve been the weird guy who uses Qubes Linux and using VeraCrypt in the cipher cascade mode and everything in their own virtual machines with a VPN and 18 proxies obsessing about open-source only and getting rid of the Intel ME etc etc etc… but eventually resigned to how exhausting it is and how it’s surely not preventing anything because I’m not a target of anything and I’m pointlessly stressing myself out.

What made me think of switching from CyberSecurity to Software Development though is that I kinda feel like I want to write new and cool things, rather than obsess about security detail… the CS class was diving into all the legal stuff you have to know and I started thinking “Wait, I wanted to learn how to hack better and how to protect myself better… but I already know all this technical stuff they’re telling me and really this is turning into a class that’s more about legal jargon and legal compliance than about tech”.

I think truthfully I just wanted to learn how CyberSecurity people think so that I can better know how to work around them and their methods, lol. I write hack mods for several games and have to subvert anticheat systems and such.

Also the servers are mostly for hosting stuff and for music, when you have a fair amount of music gear you should have a fair amount of music too lol

Yeah honestly I’m gonna have pretty overkill setup for the amount of music and stuff I have. It’s mostly going to be used for watching anime. I’ll have to start deliberately looking into services that serve-up DSD and getting ahold of better PCM sources for music I listen to. I’ll guiltily admit that I use YouTube more often than I should just because it’s easy and I often can’t find the obscure shit I’m into anywhere else – but there’s no point going this overkill if that’s my source, so some habits are going to need adjustment.

[M0N]

@Alex

50TB of NVMe ??

Correct, 50tb of pcie nvme drives split across the two servers with 50tb spinning split across too. I wouldn’t have bought them if I didn’t get an amazing price on them. I mean I’ve invested way more into audio so I thought it was worth it. All be completely honest though I just really wanted a tape drive for fun, I love it lol

@Alex

CyberSecurity to Software Development though is that I kinda feel like I want to write new and cool things, rather than obsess about security detail… the CS class was diving into all the legal stuff you have to know and I started thinking “Wait, I wanted to learn how to hack better and how to protect myself better… but I already know all this technical stuff they’re telling me and really this is turning into a class that’s more about legal jargon and legal compliance than about tech

Lol I have taken tons of law classes and legal stuff to the point where I do law consulting on the side at times, legal stuff is huge in cybersecurity. There is a difference between penetration testing and being a cyber security expert

Also software engineering is hell lol, I hate that. My advice is to focus on stuff like system administration and networking and do cyber security as a minor or something (law too is good to have). You will have a well rounded experience and be very attractive to employers. You can start as a Jr sys admin and already make a good amount and work up to cyber security in the company

@Alex

so some habits are going to need adjustment

You will start to notice the difference between lossless vs lossy for sure lol, so keep that in mind

@Alex

but it sounds like D90 is a lot of DAC for the money, as is the RNHP a lot of AMP and the Clear a lot of headphone

Yes that’s a wonderful setup for the price and I really hope you enjoy it for sure. I do think the d90 is a bit overkill for the price imo, but it will still work out just fine. This hobby is about enjoyment and I think whatever you can do to further your enjoyment is the right step to take

[Andrew_Davis]

@Alex

I can get too cocked-up in perfectionism and start making financially retarded decisions

FWIW, I couldn’t perceive a difference between the D70 and the D90.

IMO (and many others) the impact in sound goes Headphones>Amp>DAC.

That said I still kept my D90-- just out of cocked-up perfectionism.

You could get a basic DAC, then the RNHP and clears.

I think that everything you’ve mentioned so far is a good setup at different price points.

[Alex]

Well I already have a Modi 3, I figure that’ll have to do me until the D90 MQA is released.

Though if Drop does a drop on it before the MQA is out I’m gonna get the drop one. Screw MQA the if I can get a D90 for a $200 markdown or something, was probably never going to use it anyway. In fact I still won’t get the MQA if it turns out to be significantly more expensive than the standard either, I’m running off the assumption we’re talking +/- $50 tops, preferably less. I just kinda wanted it if I’m gonna put down $600 on a DAC.

[Andrew_Davis]

My inexpert opinion would be to put the money towards better headphones. Every time I step up in components I detect small differences. Every time j step up a level in headphones I’m like:

[Polygonhell]

I can hear the difference between all the DAC’s I have here.

But out side the Gungnir, which I consider to be in a separate class I really don’t care which of the others I listen to SU-8, D10 or SDAC, they are all much the same with subtle differences that make no real difference to my listening experience. Personally the D90 is not a DAC I would be looking at at $600, if you want all the additional features, maybe it’s worth the cost, but…

I find many of the cheaper amps the same way, I’d pick the Liquid Spark over the other $100 SS competitors, but there isn’t a huge difference between them, probably the Asgard 3 at $200, I’d skip over the THX stuff, and then look at things like the RNHP at $500, Liquid Platinum (which I own) at $650, maybe the Cayin IHA-6 or an SPL Phonitor.
Though when you get into the $1000+ territory for amps I’m more interested in Valve amps, and I’d want to hear them or have a good chance of selling them without a big loss.

Headphones make a much bigger difference than either, if you look at any doc/amp FR curve through headphones, there is almost no descernable difference. That’s not to say it’s not audible, but rather the headphones measurements dwarf everything else in the system.

[Alex]

Noted, but I figure I may as well complete the set. Reviews for the D90 appear really stellar and it handles literally everything it seems.

Where do y’all go to get DSD files for common music? By common meaning, if I wanted to search I dunno, the Rolling Stones or Beatles or Frank Zappa or Queen or Led Zeppelin or Elton John or… ya know, something people would know. It just seems like all DSD is put out by jazz & orchestral artists nobody’s ever heard of and I’m gonna be looking for some more mainstream music that I’m familiar with to do my impressions of course. I know my more obscure tastes won’t exist in DSD but I had hoped you can at least find some household name bands in it – if not then I doubt I’ll generally be using it at all then.