I wasn’t able to notice a real difference in DACS until my headphones got to the Focal Clear/Arya level. With TOTL headphones it’s even clearer -no pun intended- to my ears.
Others can probably hear more with more entry level headphones. My tin ears needed great cans and about three years of critical listening and gear comparisons, lol.
Is that a form of measurement?
Technology Connections made a fantastic video explaining the mathematics behind DACs:
Signal to Noise greater 90dB is more than good enough (Vinyl is 50-ish dB, typical CDs are in the 90s dB range).
I don’t think I ever saw measurements of DACs that are actually useful (outside of Spec Sheets from the DAC chip manufacturers that have loads of graphs instead of single numbers…)
Some things you could measure (by no means complete):
There is a minimum BOM cost to reach a given quality. It is not just the DAC chip, but the supporting components for power supply, filters, etc. The cost can only go so low before cutting corners.
Same for size. A properly designed circuit board can also only get so small (or large) before compromising isolation, signal integrity, etc.
You would be surprised what tiny differences humans can detect reliably.
Everything the signal touches or passes through matters. The extent to which it is important to you, is up to you.
Feature Count ≠ Quality
I agree features and performance to dictate how much to spend. Measurement diagnostics whatever want to call it to help tune the system.
Good for manufacturers too, sell more units.
I may be in a minority here but I think DACs were commoditized years ago and unless you are very unlucky and get a really badly designed outlier or faulty product they’re all fine. Does that mean I think they all measure the same? No. Clearly they measure differently, but the measurebator fixation with things like SINAD is now a bit silly as they’re so far beyond audible thresholds as to be meaningless. And clearly manufacturers can play with filters, but even then differences are subtle unless you are listening specifically to discern the effects of filter settings and pretty much meaningless if you’re listening to music. Compared to the effects of transducers, headphone pads, IEM fit and most important of all recording quality of the source material then I think DAC differences are all but irrelevant. And I think price is a very poor indicator of quality and performance in audio. Does that mean I think no expensive gear is worth the money or that cheapest is best? No, but it does mean some expensive gear is junk and some value for money affordable gear is excellent, judge gear on many things but I wouldn’t do it on price.
I generaly agree and I have some quite high end D/A converting gear. That said, I also view headphones the same way. Genuinely, unless you are talking about midfi or above, I think the convenience of moderns wierless and commodity headphones is so high there isn’t even realy a point going audiophile sub like $400. We are running into the same thing here. Matter of fact us most dacs are quite good. But they do get better than the average as well. Its just all about if you are willing to pay for that very incremental increase
In a way I think wireless audio gear proves the point. The DACs in wireless headphones and speakers are not state of the art or the sort of things measurement obsessives would get excited about but they do their job perfectly well and the fact they’re all but invisible says everything really. Ditto amplifiers, it amuses me that active speaker amplifiers with mediocre measurements and audible hiss pass by without comment from people who foam at the mouth over measurements for amplifiers. Actually I think that if you have to put your ear against the speaker to hear the hiss when not playing music and it is completely inaudible when listening to music then it is irrelevant and the benefits of active speakers much more significant, but in that case I think we should apply the same standard to other equipment.
On measurement, I think measurement is hugely valuable when assessing audio gear, but with several critical caveats:
-Any measured data is only meaningful if you understand what is being measured, how it was measured and conditions affecting measurement and performance;
-If using measurements to compare equipment then there needs to be a transparent measurement protocol;
-You have to know the condition of whatever is being measured, for example measuring modded headphones or old headphones with worn pads and pretending measurements are represented of new, unmodded headphones is silly; and
-Perhaps most importantly, sound preference is inherently subjective and we all like what we like, measurements and target curves don’t tell you what sort of tuning and sound signature you like. If you like something totally oddball then that’s what you like and that’s that.
I do think measurement is becoming slightly problematic because of the way some voices are just becoming fixated on measurement. A big risk with any product is over optimizing for a particular performance parameter.
I love my B2…both with my Rebel Amp and my Pendant tube amp. But I leave my B2 on all the time…
I couldn’t agree more!!! I have noticed that if you spend a bit more on things like linear power supplies and perhaps a digital USB bridge, your present dac will sound better!! My theory is that Dac improvements have occurred rapidly over the last 5 years or so.
Over the last 2 years, it seems to me that many manufacturers are just rehashing the same improvements in the interest of revenue enhancement. As to the things I mention above, power supply and jitter correction have been introduced into “New and improved” versions of older dacs resulting in 1K to 2K dacs. I pay attention to companies like Topping. They are major offenders in the revenue enhancement game. But…if you watch their D 50 and D90 lines…they are selling outboard power supply improvements and USB bridges configured in a “separates” approach. I wholeheartedly agree with this approach!!! My current front end uses a topping D10s as a USB bridge (to clean up the notoriously noisy USB signal from my desktop) fed to a Topping D50s powered by a linear power supply (Topping P50) For an additional 250.00 or so…I have a 500.00 digital front end that I would put up against the 1000.00 plus rigs sold out there any time!!!. Just my opinion on things.
So youre running a DAC in front of a DAC ?
Well…not exactly. The D10s takes in USB signal from my desktop (I use it for streaming music exclusively) and sends out SPDF digitally to the 50s for actual conversion. I think Topping produced it more as a digital bridge than a dac although it will function as a stand alone dac.
It’s acting as a DDC, and does help to clean the signal
learned something new. Now got to pick one up. Thanks all.
Before you pick one up (D10s) you might want to look at the new Topping M50. Been waiting 6 weeks for mine. Seems to do even more DDC plus its a media player…229.00. But read carefully…it has some stupid flaws. Check out Zeos review about 5 weeks ago.