Haven’t had those in my own setup, but I can grab a terminator for a week to test out if there was enough interest
I have more at home experience with the qutest, and also I don’t like the tt2 personally
def will be included
Yeah that’s the main reason why I would do this lol
Yeah the range for the previous compared dacs was more around 10-20k range used
I did own a bda 3 for a bit, but I didn’t include it initially because it doesn’t represent that good of a value even used at least at the moment. The bda 2 is a more reasonable choice used but I could put the 3 in there
Another thing that would interest me @M0N is a general opinion on what brands have a DNA sound, a family resemblence kind of thing. So If we find something for 2.5k but know that if you’d buy their 6 or 8K model when it depreciated more in a few years. Those kinds of details I think would be very helpful.
For example, I have a feeling that the Holo DACs have a DNA type of sound but I’ve only based that on people descriptions of how the May or Spring sounded to them, but I got in on the ground floor with the Cyan. I’d expect detail and instrument separation things like that to improve as the dollars go up, but I find just knowing if there’s a house sound a valuable piece of info.
I could make note of that given I’ve actually heard their other models. I will say that generally brands to have a house sound for sure, but some have it more than others. But it’s rare I will try 2 dacs from the same manufacturer and they don’t have some house sound or sound totally different (but it does happen from time to time if they are from different generations or there was a big shift in the company between the dacs, for example the aqua la voce s3 sounds nothing like the s2 or their current lineup, it was a total rework and shift overall, so that’s why I end up liking the s3 so much lol)
They all do somewhat have a similar signature and presentation, they all have that weaker dsd performance for the price, and usability wise somewhat similar. Generally if you like the cyan, I highly doubt you would dislike a spring or may, as they carry along the signature and presentation and improve on technicalities
So to be honest, I really don’t care about how the dac looks all that much (the mojo dacs have fucking papyrus font plastered on the front for christ’s sake, I really don’t care anymore lol), but if you forced me to answer that (will do 4), I’d say the holo may/spring, berkeley alpha series 2, bricasti m1, and msb analog dac would be the ones I would look at and think “damn those look cool”. But really though I don’t feel like I am fit to really judge if something looks good or not. It’s also something you can do pretty easily by looking online and seeing a picture, will give you a good enough representation if you are in it for looks (it’s unfortunate it’s not that easy to judge sound lol)
Audio note 1.1 or 2.1 could make a nice addition. Perhaps the ifi idsd as well if you’ve heard it enough to give some noteworthy opinions. I know it’s also a streamer and a hybrid DAC but I think that gives it some benefits others don’t have
A lot of solid options in the $2.5k price range used! If you’ve never heard it then drop it, if you think that maybe the amber 3 > Lite then drop it or if you think it’s uncompetitive then also drop it. Whatever is easiest for you and something that you would enjoy sharing,
I’d have to grab the esoteric, and I might want to re grab the ma-1 since I haven’t heard that one in awhile
I don’t really like the da-06 though, it was very mushy and soft, fairly uncontrolled, lacking enough technical performance for the price to where I didn’t find it all that worthwhile for the money
The lite 7 is a bit higher level than the amber 3, but I would include the amber 3 over the lite 7 since I have more experience with the amber 3 myself. But I could also give a nod to some of the older but still worthwhile lampi models you can grab
Sure, I actually choose sw1x over audio note though in this price range, personally I think they offer better performance per dollar
I actually have a pro idsd but I don’t use it and it’s not really mine, but I could consider including it. It just isn’t all that remarkable to me
may/spring 2 kte
la voce s3
amber 3
morpheus
terminator
some chord (prob qutest but tt2 if people really want)
yggy a2
bda-3
sagra
berkeley alpha series 2
could be the lineup I would settle on comparing (limiting to 10 here)
I could potentially throw in the audio note or sw1x dacs or ifi pro idsd from what interest is here if need be
Others seem to have less interest so far
This will most likely be a pretty condensed from memory shootout then, since so far this is all stuff I’ve had for long enough at one point to understand it well sans the terminator, but I might as well go and pick one up. Should I go for the og terminator or the plus?
From your descriptions of the high-end DACs, the Audio Note 5 sounded the most appealing for my tastes (not that I can afford it), so yeah, if you think the lower model Audio Notes or SW1X have a similar kind of sound, then it would be nice to see one of them included in the comparison.
So my main problem with the lower end audio note is that while they might carry a similar signature and organicness, the lower end ones just end up not having enough technical performance to impress me vs the dac 5, and that’s where I think sw1x pulls ahead while having a similar tuning/signature (their design is somewhat similar to the audio notes as well)
Could be interesting to throw the P6 in the mix for fun. I’m sure it can’t keep up with some others on the list, but there are a couple it likely trades blows with. Very intriguing list.
Oooooo now that would be interesting lol. And actually potentially would keep up with some of the dac models in some way given you use the p6p for the comparison (mainly the bda 3, yggy a2, spring 2 kte, and qutest)
Ordered a terminator ii, this should be interesting lol, so I’ll be putting that through it’s paces for the next month or two (depending on when I actually get it). I can then start trying to form the comparisons (or I guess I could do that now for some of the stuff I’ve already heard, but idk)
I was going to go for the plus but that would have been technically out of budget for this comparison (although I’m sure used at some point it would drop to bring reasonable, but it isn’t at the time of writing)
So speaking for myself, since the only point of reference I have is sub-$2k DACs, maybe it would also be nice to include a baseline of where you hear some common stacks like RNHP+BF2 or v280+2541 in the comparison as well?
I don’t know if that even makes sense for the comparison you’re looking at doing, but it would be nice to be able to read about the $2k+ DACs and have some idea where they land in comparison to the less-expensive equipment I’m used to hearing and would be upgrading from.
So I could, but my concern is that it wouldn’t offer much insight to do so, as it would likely put them in the bottom of every category since the dacs planned are pretty much just generally a step above, sometimes in a pretty non close manner. So I don’t know if it would be much use including them
Possibly this might help. So I might as well try a sloppy way of conveying what you get with each tier, from top to bottom. This is literally off the top of my head overall so it’s not going to be the most thought out, again greatly generalized (notice a trend here lol?), but perhaps this will give some context
This is for new prices btw, not including used, this is basically just how I feel about the different tiers of dacs. This doesn’t include specific synergy, just how I think making the jumps through the tiers end up turning out. Examples are just examples, they don’t mean anything more than that, just showing random options in the range. Assume synergy demands increase with each tier for simplicity and dacs are evaluated with the highest tier amps and headphones to totally reveal synergy. Don’t worry about the names lol
The entry level tier, mainly centered around 100 bucks. Examples include topping e30, earmen donald dac, schiit modi 3+, etc. These dacs offer a step up over your phone/pc build in dacs, and are simple plug and play dacs that do their job well enough, but nothing remarkable, just get the job done. Basically they differences between them are smaller and you are looking for features.
The upper entry level tier which is around 200-300 bucks. Examples include schiit modius, geshelli jnog/enog, aune x8, etc. More features to be had (specifically balanced typically), more features like pre options or more IO, and have a smaller but noticeable step up from the previous tier, further refinement of merely ok, better than just get the job done, but not by much.
The no mans land of dacs, around 300-600 ish bucks. Examples include allo revolution (with shanti lps), topping d70s, smsl m500, etc. You don’t want to be here most of the time, the options generally (with exception of a select few) don’t provide that significant boost in sound quality or features over the upper entry level, so it makes more sense to stick below and save money, or move up and get much larger returns by spending a bit more actually.
The midrange tier of dacs, around 600-1k. Examples include schiit bifrost 2, denafrips ares ii, mytek liberty, etc. This is where you get a big immediate jump in sound quality over previous dacs, and also where things start to branch out and differ significantly from each other, so differences between both the lower tier dacs and the midrange tier of dacs themselves make themselves reasonably apparent. Generally dacs in this range get to where they start to offer reasonable organicness AND technical performance balances that you didn’t get in lower tiers (typically in lower tiers you make more of a sacrifice for one side), good all rounders and reasonably capable. You start to get more spatial recreation, dynamics, timbre, and lower level information which you don’t really get in the lower tiers.
The entry high end tier of dacs, around 1-1.5k. Examples include soekris dac2541, holo cyan, chord qutest. Now you take another step up in technical performance but typically not as far in organicness and refinement, so potentially still trading some blows with midrange tier. Things start to resolve low level detail better, texture becomes something you can now tell is clearly starting to be there, overall clarity improves a fair bit, and spatial recreation gets more holographic, although again not as much of improvements in organics and may make more compromises to get there, things are less balanced here, as some dacs end up deciding which side to favor more.
The midrange high end tier of dacs, around 1.5-2.5k. Examples include holo spring 2 kte, schiit yggy a2, crane song solaris quantum. A solid step above the entry high end and midrange tier overall that’s fairly immediately noticable. This now regains more balance between technical performance, where you get further gains in that area but organicness now catches up, you start to get a lot of balance, coherency, and decent organicness coupled with a high level of technical performance that leads to an overall pretty great experience. Starting to excel in fluid presentation of low level info, apparent texture, refined and coherent stage that are accurate and somewhat convincing, good dynamics, and impressive difference between the dacs themselves (can be pretty dang different at this point). Also starting to control tonal density and presentation quite well. Also your digital source really starts to play a role here in what you feed it with, so start to take note of that. A decent streamer or midrange ddc is worth a look.
The upper high end tier of dacs, from around 2.5k-5k. Examples include lampizator amber 3, aqua la voce s3, xi sagra, etc. Another solid step up although some of the midrange high end may compete in some aspects but not many, and it might not be immediate but will def reveal itself with longer listening. Overall technical performance and organicness take another bump, getting really into the range of refinement and capability packaged together, dacs now heavily differ from each other a fair bit (although the ones in the previous tier already did that pretty well). They present their capabilities with very good coherency, feel less strained in presentation, strong focus on intangibles with really getting into control and grip, very impressive texture, dynamics specifically micro, timbre, and spatial recreation in an organic way. Also having good tonal density control. When you get here you may notice the dacs more adapting to the source material playing when it comes to their signature and technical ability (ex might be stage adapting it’s size to the tracks). Digital source dependence increases here once again.
The very high end tier of dacs, from around 5-10k. Overall step up for sure, pretty immediate. Examples include bricasti m1, mojo mystique evo b4b or basic, weiss dac501, etc. So now you are getting a significant boost in realism overall, with an increase in technicality and a bigger boost in organicness leading to a sense of completeness and refinement, being also getting a sense of effortlessness. Really getting into smoothness and liquidity with still a ton of technical ability, texture for sure and tons of nuance, spatial recreation that is feeling more in the room or at the recording, timbre that feels very convincing, real command over the output. The quality of the dac is becoming very reliant on the quality of the source material and the quality of the digital input into the dac. Also feature wise, some of these dacs may have pretty decent streamers in them too depending on the dac or other interesting features that many not be something you see on other lower end dacs
The exclusive level of dacs, from around 10-20k. Examples include rockna wavedream signature bal, nagra classic dac, mola mola tambaqui, etc. Another fairly immediate jump in quality over the previous tier. This really kicks almost everything up a notch for the most part, and you get pretty massive differences between each dac, all going for different goals. Overall completeness is very impressive, and balance is sweet although they still typically favor some aspects over others. Nuance is through the roof, low level information is crazy but not in your face, texture super apparent, dynamics very capable. The dac really adapts to what it’s being feed with (both good and bad, super reliant on incoming digital signal and source material). Overall feeling of being there and realism really getting there and things start to get so good that it’s hard to pick out single aspects of a dac and not treat it as a whole as it’s so coherent
The summit level of dacs, from 20k+ (lazy and can’t think of any more tier names, there should be more but this is enough for the sake of this). Examples include totaldac d1-direct, aries cerat kassandra ii ref, lampizator gg2 discrete bal, etc. These are typically jaw drop moments on hearing them, fairly quickly. Not to say you can’t get that from some of the lower tiers, but these just hit you when you hear them right away and keep you that way the entire time. Generally technical level feels limitless, the dac feels so refined that it doesn’t feel like it’s there almost, the sound is crazy realistic most of the time with different flavors added in, really hard to describe easily. Digital input and sources make or break at this level
I will likely refine this later since I just did this briefly and today I’m slightly out of it, so sorry if it’s hard to understand or slightly inconsitant for now. Hopefully this would give some insight on to what potential changes you would see as you move up. But again this is assuming you already have top tier amps and headphones. If you handicap that area this will all change of course. And again, this is over generalization and it will depend on the specific dac at hand. Sorting tiers by price isn’t really fair but I don’t have the time to sort like every dac I’ve heard into these tiers either so price will have to do for now lol (price just happens to be the most consistent and I only base it off of what options can be had at that price point, there will always be things that don’t hold up despite being in the price point)
Also to perhaps find limits, I’d say that for an amp like the v280, I really wouldn’t go above midrange high end dacs (just going to roll with the names lol), you can get more out of the upper high end tier of dacs but at that point I would really want to upgrade my amp first for more benefit. I wouldn’t find it worthwhile to go anything past upper high end with a v280. This is assuming your headphones are also a reasonable match for the v280 as well (perhaps something like a clear, arya, hd800s, beyer t1.2, etc)
