The Shit List - hp/iem/sp/dacs/amps/sources/etc, never ending WIP (not a tier list)

The tambaqui is also fpga pwm based (and imo similar ish yet different goal to the chord).

Personally haven’t heard good things about the lina vs the other DCS, although I was impressed by a vivaldi stack (and bartok as an aio sorta), but their signature has always felt like a weird balance to me, very natural in some aspects, very strange in others, would agree that a lot of the dcs have a bit more of a weird sheen (like the dave does, in a different regard) that I don’t really appreciate myself. Also think value wise, they’re a harder sell for the price

IMO the dave sort of unnaturally pushes things forward dynamically, kinda an overly upfront presentation for everything, it’s almost like they set out to make something that sounded very digital, but at the same time had some organic aspects and also had sort of a coating to the sound that also isn’t to my taste same with the dcs lol.

So here’s what I actually had to say about the mola mola after someone asked me why I didn’t have it on this list lol

"It’s a weird thing to say considering that it pulls a great amount of resolution/detail, has great liquidity, and has a nice sense of slight bloom and slight sweetness that makes it enjoyable and never harsh perhaps even slightly soft, but I guess to me it just feels vivid yet flat. Not like spatially and dynamically flat (although it’s not as impressive as other dacs in its range in that regard), but a combination of both too much and no contrast, very black and white and not much in-between (because it seems to take information that would be in-between and shove it to black or white giving it it’s vividness), and I think that’s the aspect that got to me in the end. Actually you know what no, it’s that it just didn’t sound like it had any energy, immediacy or directness, it’s more just going through the paces and doesn’t actually feel lively about doing it and that’s probably what gave me that lack of satisfaction in the end. It sounds vivid and technical yet flat and not really direct or energetic and because of that it just sounds off leaving me feeling mixed after each time I listened. It sounded organic and convincing in specific aspects in isolation, but it’s like there’s a barrier preventing that feeling from really happening, and the overall sound feels more vivid and contrasty than it should be (leading to the feeling of a deficiency in natural contrast or things properly in the middle)

It’s like watching one of those demo modes on an amazing TV where there’s a lot to like there but things are definitely blown out to impress the average Joe and it’s trying to show as much contrast and naturalness as possible yet is clearly going overboard and just ends up looking off and feeling unnatural and a bit smoothed over for inner detail. Basically giving you the impression that while some aspects of it are reasonably real in isolation, it’s still very apparent things aren’t in the full picture and it’s just a TV, compared to other dacs in it’s price range which can give you an experience closer to actually seeing something in person (not all that close, but closer than the mola mola). Kinda reminds me of some of the weird coloration that dcs has and potentially chord, but I’d take the mola mola over a dave (with no mscaler) for my personal preferences (with mscaler it might be a different story). And I’m not the biggest of those dacs either, so there will be other dacs I’d rather have instead as well of course. I don’t like doing comparisons to vision because it’s a lot harder to trick your eyes then your ears (and my vision is also shit anyways) but I don’t know a good way how to explain what I was hearing.

I don’t really know, I don’t know if I like it or not. I respect it, I kinda enjoyed it when I had it, and it’s something that I can see some really liking, but I don’t think it’s for me, and I can’t decide if I liked it myself. Really regardless of if I liked it or not or where I think it compares I don’t want to list it because it should be very clear from the above that I can’t make up my mind on it lol, so I don’t feel confident putting it on there regardless. It is good, but I’d really want to hear it one more time before/if I ever put it on the list again"

So sort of similar to the “it has a weird sheen across the sound” but in a different way lol. Had one for awhile, liked some aspects, but in the end it wasn’t for me and didn’t really lead to a satisfying listening experience for me.

Never heard the gustard so can’t really comment.

But really I’m not personally that big of a fan of really any of the listed dacs as something to showcase “what r2r or high end is about”, and all of them sort of lean in the signature you described, so really you just ended up hearing a sample of dacs that all had similar goals in a sense lol

Out of curiosity what was the rest of the chain for those demos?

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For dCS lina and Dave it was AT-BHA100->ADX5000/L5000

For Tambaqui it was some power amp and martin logan Estats.

For Gustard R26 it was the fiio K9 pro balanced line in->ATH-AWKT

Yeah I guess it makes sense they all lean towards the sameish direction even though they are quite different. Thanks for the repost of your tambaqui review.

Guess I need to search harder for proper R2R endgame then.

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I don’t know if I’d say something isn’t “proper r2r” but if you’re looking for something different from the aforementioned, I’d highly suggest seeing if you can try out anything mentioned on my list for example since my own preferences for r2r dacs tends to lean more toward things that aren’t like the dave or mola mola (but also don’t like some of the warm mush type r2r either lol), and just see, you’ll find there are huge variance between dacs in the high end what they go for, but at the same time there are mfg that can go totally different directions yet end up with similar results lol, it’s really hard to pin down a specific sound based on the tech a dac uses because of that variability. Same thing with tube amps for example, you can get the stereotypical “tubyness” that people seek in the lower end, but also extremely neutral and technical options that sound more solid state than anything else lol, all depends on implementation and what people are after in design (and what you pair with them of course)

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Oh yeah I can understand that, while my friend/fomer audio dealer didnt rec tubes to me because I wanted that speed and power and presision but after looking around I found that with good quality tube amps I can get good dry textured vocals/strings/precussion while still maintained the same level of dynamics and detail that on solid state amps would have cost me 10X more with the minor catch that most of those reference tuned tube amps are on the slightly brighter side.

At lest in singapore access to the ToTL stuff seems to be pretty much enclaved off to the really rich so Im hopping I can get to get to try them at audio shows even though those are not the best place to demo them.

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I have the Elex as my primary headphones. I also have the 6XX, but I hope to try those on tubes someday soon.

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Out of curiosity, what are your guys thoughts on the concept of a reviewers “reference chain”? What people consider a “reference” tends to really vary, how they’re used as a whole tend to vary, and how reviewers handle synergy and pairings with the chains really depend as well. And if there’s more than one chain as well lol. Was just curious about what people see various reviewers do often, and potentially how you might go about making one if you feel like it lol

Slowly chipping away at the question myself in my list under the rant section with my own rationale and picks since it’s kinda an interesting thought exercise

In theory, I don’t think it’s a bad idea. In practice, I’m not sure it’s really practical.

I’ve also written and deleted, trying to put into words why I think that, multiple times. It just refuses to come out coherently. :cry:

For one thing, there really has to be more than one reference chain. You can’t be using the same things for the Susvara that you are for the next cheap Chifi IEM. Not only does that not make sense from a pairing/synergy standpoint, the audience will lose their minds if you review entry level gear off of a chain meant to be able to bring out most of what the Sus can give.

The same issue arises with source gear. Are you going to use a DT880 to review multi-thousand dollar DACs and amps? You could, I suppose, but that’s not going to go over very well either. Honestly, keeping your front-end the same is about as far as I think is reasonable. As long as it’s up to par with the best that you will be reviewing, then I’d rather put the time on more pairings to find what does/doesn’t work, than have one or two set chains that I put everything through.

Did any of that make sense?

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There aren’t a lot of closed backs on the list, have you thought of making a separate list for them? I’d say they warrant another category like IEMs since they have their own use case, could also mention isolation. You could also make a disclaimer on what you haven’t heard out of the popular stuff like Clear MG, HEK Stealth, etc. so ppl aren’t wondering why they’re not on the list.

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I thought about it, but honestly that’s because there aren’t really too many that I like, especially considering how good iems are these days to where I’d rather just go that route if I needed isolation and potential portability. I could make a separate list, but I do have some sprinkled into the list already (r10, th900 (kinda), awkt, vc, gh50, eikon, 7506, live se), and I don’t really know if I’d have all too many more to add tbh

That’s a good idea, just wonder how I’d integrate that, and keep it up to date lol

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Agreed, imo ideally you want multiple chains at a specific tier so multiple reference chains at each range, but that really adds a lot of cost and overhead lol

Yep. You can sorta get away with using higher end source gear to review lower end stuff I’d say, but not vice versa, though neither are ideal.

Wonder about that

Yeah, I do think that’s sometimes valuable to do with classics like the 880 and 600 and so on, but you really do want to have the appropriate transducers for the source gear and vice versa.

Def agree

Makes sense to me lol

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Added a section at the bottom of notable stuff I haven’t heard, will likely grow as more people remind me of stuff. Just reminds me of how I’m somewhat behind on a lot of releases lol. Perhaps that’s just because none of them really look all that interesting, or just because I’m lazy and also happy with what I have now

:+1:

Looking at the newest Hifiman releases, I don’t think we’re missing much (WaveTheory’s Audivina review anyone? Sundara Closed, etc.).

Small wonder with that gear in your possession lol

It doesn’t help that it’s pretty confusing too with their newer naming schemes lol. I do want to hear the stuff eventually, but moreso just to see how that range has improved/changed, got to hear the arya stealth vs the arya v2 and that was pretty interesting, I could see someone liking either or, so wonder if the new stuff are improvements or sidegrades (esp with the hek line). Really though the only think I’d jump on quick myself would be if there’s a new susvara or new shangri la, although I’m not really sure if there’s anything in the works there

Aside from that, out of what I listed in the section (at the time of writing), what I actually do want to hear is the raal ca1a (since seems very hit or miss for people), the W2022 (cool, but expensive), stax x9000 (only if I get back into stats), yamaha yh-5000 (really really interested in this one tbh, almost pulled the trigger but tapped out on audio budget lately lol), and really that’s about it. Wouldn’t mind hearing other cans, but those are really the only ones I’m after. Oh and the new sony open backs cause that’s unexpected from the brand at this point, I’m sure it’s no qualia 010 or anything but still interested

IEM wise, honestly, don’t really care anymore and just set with what I got unless there’s a better version of what I already have to come out, but I guess I am kinda curious about the rhapsodio supreme (to hear a true totl full planar iem), acoustune hs2000mx (crazy looks), ambient acoustics mad24 (crazy amount of drivers lol), campfire trifecta (really this one to see what the hype is about and if campfire is still innovating), faudio mezzo le (since I like the project y and am curious how that is vs), the svanar (since I have a bit of a soft spot for the re2000 gold), final a5000 (since I really like the a4000 and a8000), jomo gt600 (since I really liked the older trinity), and I’m sure there’s some others lol. But despite this being a bigger list, they’re lower priority than headphones and I’m less likely to go out of my way to try them. I’m also sure there’s some new hotness that I have no clue that exists (in fact perhaps hundreds of new hotness iems that come out seemingly monthly lol), but just don’t follow this space as much.

There’s plenty more dacs and digital sources that I have on the list to try and have been trying, that’s more what I’ve been interested in after solidifying transducers that can properly scale and such, so that direction makes more sense to me, and imo it’s honestly more interesting in the high end lol. Speaking of

Really I think a lot of my setups are solidified.

Never leaving (unless they absolutely have to):

  • My lamm gear + sra and cms iso gear for the lamm (can’t be replaced, imo best pre + amp combo in the world with the right speakers, confident in saying that too)
  • mysphere (duh, see article, even if new version comes out I’m keeping the old)
  • lotoo paw gold touch ti (see above, but no article here)
  • robert koda takumi k15ex (most reliably good preamp I’ve come across, and I’m sure any upgrade to it will outprice me and take way too long to be upgraded with the waitlist, so not even going to try lol)
  • hyla sarda (just a fantastic edc iem for me that I wouldn’t really replace with anything else)
  • my og hd600, 880, mdr v6, and esp950 (for sentimental value, and still use them from time to time)
  • ksc 75 (well the exact pair might be replaced when they wear out, will always have a pair around)
  • mass kobo 424 (fantastic portable that hasn’t really been beaten by anything for me yet, and I’ll keep it around even if there’s a newer one)
  • purist dominus loom for main 2ch (great synergy, don’t want to spend any more for cables for that setup)

Could potentially change if new versions come out, but otherwise same as above:

  • totaldac d1-sublime (yes I upgraded lol)
  • verity lohengrin iis (one of the most enjoyable speakers I’ve ever heard, and fantastic synergy with the lamm, but eying the new upgrade to them)
  • lampizator horizon (I’m sure there will be a new one of these in a few years lol, and this isn’t as solidified in my mind as the totaldac but mostly still solidified)
  • riviera afm50 (another case of might be at the previous category if it weren’t for eventually considering a higher end or future model)
  • aries cerat concero 25 (see above)
  • mass kobo 394 ii (I’ll eventually get a 465 at some point lol, but will be awhile)
  • hifiman susvara (if there’s a new susvara then I’ll upgrade and ditch the old if it’s better, but otherwise then it’s in the previous category)
  • the traillii jp, infinity mk2, thummim (all great, all subject to be upgraded, but also don’t care too much anymore)
  • sonore signature rendu se optical tier ii + opticalmodule deluxe + ideon absolute time (really like it, wish there was higher end sonore, but the absolute time saves it)
  • borresen 01 (really enjoy them, one of my favorite bookshelves I’ve heard for what I want out of my 2nd setup, but not 100% attached to them or anything)
  • audience frontrow loom and fta sinope (really enjoy what these do in most all setups, really could just stop for that, but might change if I demo something that’s better synergy or something, so not set in stone like the purist are for me)
  • snake river loom (great standby higher end cables)
  • focal utopia (really unique headphones that I haven’t really heard replicated elsewhere)
  • final d8000 pro (the bass really keeps this around, incredibly organic bass texture, but everything else is good but not amazing for my collection, might be in the lower section but saved by the bass for now)
  • woo wa8 (great portable tube amp, but if something better comes out I’d ditch it)

Things likely to change:

  • antipodes k50 (upgrade to a g4 oladra soon enough)
  • mojo mystique evo pro 21 (it’s either being sold due to not really using it, or moving up to a higher end mojo if they ever get made)
  • luxury & precision p6 pro (might seem strange with how much I like it, but waiting for lp7 ti or might cave if I can get a good deal on a lp6 ti or 7th ae)
  • berkeley alpha usb (will likely replace with a better ddc, potentially from totaldac, potentially from someone else for both an upgrade and better chain synergy)
  • audio technica adx5k (feel like this doesn’t really match my setup as much and doesn’t get enough use to justify keeping, but I do still have the desire to keep them for the time being)

Things that will be leaving asap:

  • voxativ pi 2 ac4x (very unhappy with these for my space, setup, and wants, was a stupid impulse purchase, really shows lol)

and likely some other stuff that I’m missing lol. But really, happy with most everything at this point, there’s really little that I plan to change and I’m not in the biggest rush, and after that, I really don’t know if I’ll be interested in other stuff after that lol. Pretty much just upgrading the potential remaining bottlenecks, solidifying synergy, and putting a few extra tweaks where desired. After that, I think I’m tapped out in both funds and energy lol. Can’t complain about anything with the performance at this point, can’t ask for more, and also don’t even think about this stuff anymore while listening to music which is really one of the greatest complements I can give things at this point lol

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Wondering how you feel about the D8k OG (heard it with Brise cable, made a lot of difference) and 64 audio stuff (U12t).

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My take away from the time I spent with it was that it was odd. Not necessarily bad, mind. It had the technical chops to be worth the price from what I could tell, but the tuning in the mids especially was just different.

Nice! I’m looking forward to hearing how much of an improvement you think it is over the twelve. And how much for of a hassle it is having another box to cable manage, lol.

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So I feel like I need to really revisit the OG. I also run a brise cable on my pro and think it’s fantastic for the headphone lol. I’ve also liked the top tier lavricable for a budget brise with the headphone. But back to the og, I thought technically it was a bit lacking, but I did like the tonality with it, I do have a pro LE on the way which apparently is the best of both with the tonality of the og and technicalities of the pro, but remains to be seen. Only tried the og with limited source gear and stock cable, so I never really feel like I gave it a fair shake tbh

I have, and personally enjoy stuff like the u12t and the tia trio, and they can be pretty great value used, but imo they fill the category of “very well rounded but master of none” and I think for my personal preferences instead of a tia trio I’d rather have a fir m5 for more impressive technical performance and imo a better signature with somewhat similar characteristics to the tia trio. For the U12t I’d rather have an inear prophile 8 or something like that but really I can appreciate the u12t for what it is and why people like it. Don’t know how I feel about value new but used value they’ve come down enough to where they are pretty good deals. One big advantage from my experience for the 64a stuff is that they’re fairly source forgiving for what they offer which I think really contributes to the somewhat communal omnipresent feeling. Not to say that you shouldn’t really get a proper source for them or that they won’t scale, but they’re fairly consistent across devices from a tonal and presentation perspective and while overall technical proficiency will shift depending on the source, it’s not going to be as drastic shifts and scaling performance as lets say other iems around the price range

assuming it was also pretty source picky, and pretty fit picky. Also felt like a replacement cable on the older re2kg really helped me like it and fix some of it’s oddness

Given how the triunity was vs the twelve I was already pretty impressed, and actually with the sublime it’s less boxes than the twelve lol (since I use the twelve mk2 which is already 3 boxes but then I have monoblock d1-drivers which adds 2 more boxes to that, + a 5 live power box and I had another reclocker chained in as well

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I only spent any time with using the unity>oor or the RS6. I did notice some sibilance on one song with the RS6, but I’m not sure if it was from the track itself or if it was from the RS6 not being warmed up properly.

As for cables, if you get your hands on a set of Svarnar at some point, I hope you have more luck than the rest of us have had with after-market cables. Hifiman has recessed the connector so far into the shell that I’m not aware of a cable outside of the stock one that will fit.

A better product with fewer boxes? You’ve won all around there.

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Oh yeah that was the same with the re2k, although iirc there are adapters that allow you to use more traditional 2 pin, but can’t recall

It’s nice that that’s the case for once lol

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It did come with adapters, but they were not very user friendly.

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Looks interesting, esp. with the switches, it should be pretty universal sounding if I only want to own 1 or 2 IEMs, though I wonder if my 250$/€ dongle would do it enough justice, I just can’t bring myself to buy something big like a DAP, wanna keep it as pocket friendly as possible.

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