Just gonna join the discussion again.
I’ve tried to use a pair of DT 770 pro 80ohm and they sound pretty bad on onboard. So yeah. An amp is very likely needed.
Also, a random question again. Do you think I’d like planars if I already like the smoothness and punchyness of dynamic headphones? I’ve heard planars are pretty aggressive and not very warm most of the time. And they look uncomfortable just looking at the weight.
EDIT: What was your first impressions of planar headphones the first time?
I appreciate the response @Falenkor! Would you be able to speak to whether Planar makes a difference with the audio engine used in Siege? Also you mentioned Sundara has had QC issues so it may be a risky purchase.
The other element is something I’m also interested in what you said. For music and movies I can see the benefit of some of these higher priced models. But you mentioned that in Siege separation of audio cues are not the most important factors.
Say I was considering, DT1990 (I could EQ this with Loki to be less harsh?) vs TYGR 300R vs AD1000x vs AD2000x vs Sundara, what would work the best in your estimation for gaming situations and audio cues in Siege? Knowing their audio cues (footsteps, placement of footsteps being above or below, direction/imaging etc).
Edit: And one more thing. Is it ultimately worth the increase for strictly FPS gaming? I know the headphone doesn’t make you a better gamer, but are the increases in the ability to pick up audio cues substantially better with price or is the improvement only marginal?
Just gonna add to this. I don’t think you should go over 3-400 dollars for a headphone just for gaming. I’ve heard Zeos talk about that it would be unnecessary for just gaming. I might be wrong here.
Edit: And it would definitely depend which headphone you buy with its imaging capabilities, separation and soundstage. As for price to performance. Probs not very good over that pricerange.
The TYGR’s would be the best in your situation. Decent soundstage, great imaging. Warmer sound than the 990’s I use according to people and tests. So yeah. You could EQ to get more treble in order to hear cues easier. But that wouldn’t be needed I don’t think.
So many edits…
Since the pads on the Tygr’s arent very good in the long run since they flatten very easily. Do a pad swap from dekoni or electromod.co.uk (they sell pads for EU) you could easily get much more comfier pads on them with memory foam which is much better.
You rock, been reading several of your comments, I’m impressed with your dedication and knowledge, respect! I’ve got some questions though… hope you could help a fellow European who’s getting into the rabbit hole!
I’ve always loved music from Experimental Jazz to Prog Metal and I’m also a highly competitive player @ Valorant, but never invested time understanding the hardware side of things, so I’ve been living with mostly crappy gaming headphones. Hopefully those times are over!
As a European my options for Headphones/Amps/Dacs are somehow limited as far as I’ve understood thus far, but I would like to ask your opinion on the following products that I’ve selected, based on my “limited/current” knowledge for my use and budget.
Budget - Around 400 EUR ~ 500 USD (can be changed if there’s a good reason)
Sad that EU prices are clearly overpriced when compared to USA prices, otherwise I’d pick an Asgard 3/DarkVoice for 200$ and Liquid Spark/Ifi Zen Dac for 99$ in USA, where in EU that would cost me 500 USD? Like seriously?
As someone who’s new into this world, I find it hard to “swallow” the pillow that Amps and Dacs are as expensive if not even more expensive than the headphones itself. Anyhow I’m willing to take the risks as I’m naive enough to believe that there’s still so much potential.
What kind of Headphone/Amp/Dac would you suggest for my usage/budget?
This turned out to be a longer message than I initially expected. I’m sorry for the text wall. I would be deeply grateful and appreciate if you could educate me on how to make a reasonable choice based on my budget/usage and price/performance of the different products.
Depends on the audio codec honestly some do sound alright but most don’t
Very possible. Planars are typically more textured but they also bring speed and slam to the sound
Depends on which you get. Argons are planar and have absolutely amazing low end
It needed more bass outside of that they sounded incredible. That was sundara. I moved to aeons which is one of my favorites in my collection. Regular use not gaming
The qc issues are annoying but if you get a good sundara that headphone is one of the absolute best bright headphones in sound quality i have tried within like the $600 bracket. As for siege, it has limitations on soundstage pretty sure on purpose, but no real limits on the imaging to my ear you just need something with 3d positional audio
Separation mainly comes into play during very heated gun fights where you have a ton of sound all at once. Without good separation it sounds like a garbled mess and you tend to have issues placing the sounds or in which way bullets are travelling that sort of thing.
For siege? Tygr would be the best budget, 1990 and ad2000x would be absolute overkill and sundara and 1000x would be your more middle ground but not too much better than tygr… just a diff signature other than bright treble advantage
Depends what you are coming from. If it’s a gaming headset in most cases the difference is huge.
Depends on the game… casual games tend to have better sound engines so they can get a better sound quality in most cases. But I’d say $500 being the absolute max unless music gets involved.
I wouldn’t say decent the stage is quite large and a above the average but it lacks that air and depth. Imaging on tygr is like 990 in that it’s practically laser accurate and had a good 3d positional kinda sound, warm signifies bass… i would not say tygr has more warmth than the 990 as 990 depending on the ohms is definitely bassier.
First I’ve heard of the edt 990 vb flattening easily… they should last at the least a good year
If you plan to do this with tygr… keep it velour or perf. Other pads add to the bass and muddy it up or slightly give it a veiled sound at the same time extra bass on tygr is a bad idea in competitive
that’s the same price we pay at 600 ohm anything cheaper than $200 is fine less you get it used. 880 is a great headphone in most uses and a great option to see if you have a treble intolerance due to its tuning. Imaging is spot on and while others like 990 have better staging 880 is no slouch… its semi open and the sound quality is excellent. Great all rounder bright headphone next to sundara
There are alternatives but yea this is unfortunate. I do believe ifi and topping are available to you though, maybe jds as well. Look into ifi zen stack, topping l30 and l30, and jds atom stack. If you just want gaming peripherals though look into just soundblaster g6… not the best sound quality but enough to drive the 600 ohm
As you go up the chain in price you gain better sound qualities… in some cases you’ll find a headphone that sounds like crap on one setup but on another it sounds great. I had these same issues with t1.2, focal clear, aeon open x, among many others. You don’t need the expensive stuff for competitive gaming as the sound engines already have limits but music and casual gaming definitely improve as you go.
I am a bit on the busy side today, I can get back to you a bit better later on if you like. Otherwise you can reach out to others with more audiophile experience for help.
A lack of clarification on my part. So me meaning it is warmer the 990’s is less treble peakness. Warmer was probably the wrong word.
Pads on the 990’s are very prone to get flatten after about 5 or 6 months for me. Especially at the top and it made my ear very irritated and I just didn’t like the overall dimensions of it either.
Also pad change on the tygrs. Velour. Period. I think the other pads would definitely ruin them.
Yup gotcha. When I meant is it worth it I primarily meant would you be able to pinpoint and get a noticeable improvement if I came from AD700x to either the AD1000x, Sundara, or TYGR 300R
By the way you’ve helped me narrow down to those three. Now it’s just a matter of if the price is worth the improvement for myself
ad700x on top 1000x on bottom… should be pretty clear to see that 1000x tweaked it’s low end to not be so recessive, mids aren’t as emphasized and pushed forward, treble now falling under neutrality instead of being on the peakier side… overall it’s a more balanced signature more towards neutral but still focused on the mids and highs when you listen to it. The soundstage sounds less spacious due to the change of treble removing some of the air in the sound, but it is more accurate by a good margin and with good separation. I would say it would depend completely on what your looking for… I wouldn’t particularly call it a large upgrade for gaming but it would still be a step up relatively speaking.
let’s get into the sundara next
Bright headphone, similar signature traits as you can see to the ad series you have, definitely not as peaky as the ad700x as the treble is bright and smooth… it sounds brighter than the graph would suggest though. mids are raised slightly as is the treble and it’s definitely a bright headphone. Planars are a special breed of headphone as they sound different than dynamics… they tend to have more texture to their sound traits and are the driver known for speed and slam. In terms of soundstaging, the Sundara just sounds huge with a lot of air and depth to it’s staging giving you a more concert like sound, at the same time it leaks a ton of sound so if leaking sound is a concern… sundara may not be the best choice. I would handsdown take a Sundara over the AD series(excluding 2000x) any day of the week. Graphs only tell you so much. In terms of placement, width, depth, detail retrieval, sparkle, etc Sundara can even go head to head and potentially best DT 880. The only thing is that Sundara has QC issues, the build quality feels cheap as do all hifiman really, it can be very expensive depending on where your from, it leaks a ton of sound, needs an amp despite low ohms(planars are just power needy drivers), imaging is not laser accurate like some of it’s competition.
Warm signature or a subtle V. mids have recession, treble has some recession despite this graph provided not showing that, bass and treble both have increased portions above neutral. Bass stays out of the away and is plenty controlled without rumble issues in fps. Imaging is laser accurate, soundstage is around as large as the AKG k7 series but without much air in the sound. Very lightweight potentially lighter or even in weight to ad700x. Out of every headphone I have tried at $200 this was the one that threw me off the most with how good this thing is in both gaming purposes as well as music… tygrs are just ridiculously good and have traits that just aren’t seen until the much higher price brackets such as a speaker like presentation or an appropriate full 3d positional laser accurate imaging… let alone being potentially the only Warm headphone capable of these traits still being good for competitives less going to a much higher bracket of pricing. Downsides? despite low ohms its actually power demanding… you cannot properly run this ampless on a console and on a lot of motherboards it has power issues without an amp, it’s equalizer picky… trying to mess with this things sound doesn’t work well, it’s pad picky… trying to throw your favorite pad material on may not be the best idea here as it tends to completely destroy tygrs sound outside of velours or perforated pads, it can appear to be veiled due to the recessions in portions of the signature
Yeah I just wanted to state the current price of them, to be sure if you’d still consider them at that price a good deal for my usage, or if you’d recommend another headphone.
Awesome, thanks for the recommendations! They’re available and they’re all the same price when stacked, around 300 EUR ~ 365 USD. Is there any reason why some might be better to combine them with the BT 880 600 ohm?
What would you choose for my usage? From experimental jazz to prog metal + competitive fps gaming (Valorant)? Another headphone? An Asgard 3/something else for the moment and later on a DAC?
Thanks a lot, Falenkor! Truly appreciate your guidance <3
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just depends on the signature your looking for really. 880s work fine and most people stick with them.
scaling, synergy, and particular sound traits that come from the amp and dac.
valorant isn’t the best of sound engines so 880 should fit fine… amps for 880 would potentially make the ifi zen can/zen dac stack the better option as 880s bass is around neutral… otherwise jds atom would be the next best choice…
depends, personally I think the 880 does the job fine for things like jazz but if someone likes bass it’s not the best choice in music, as for gaming it depends on the game… valorant isn’t the largest fps nor does it have the best of sound engines so really 880 should be able to push that to the limits… if not Sundara or DT 990 would be the better option due to larger soundstage, more air, and 990 has better imaging. As for asgard 3? well, asgard 3 is amazing but not available everywhere. if you can’t get it… could always look into Lake People’s amps
Thanks for your answer! Just to clarify I’m not only looking for sound quality for gaming, I understand this thread is more competitive gaming related, but the product that I’m looking for is also for music listening experience. A good balance of the good things of both worlds would be optimal.
So, would you consider the 990 to be a better option? Price wise they’re exactly the same here. Would it be also 600 ohms? Would you pair it with the same amp/dac that you recommended, the ifi zen can/dac? Would you choose another route?
Sundara on the other hand is more than the double of the 880 / 990 price. So, I’d say its out of equation unless doesn’t need amp/dac, which I kinda doubt at this point.
I can get the Asgard 3 for 260€, but that’s like the price of the ifi zen can/dac together. I’ve understood that a certain amp/dac can change the game… but do you consider the Asgard 3 a game changer compared to the Ifi Zen Amp?
990 is very sharp v shaped as a signature while 880 is neutral balanced and bright. Ifi zen pairs better to 880 because the bass is practically fully neutral so the added warmth and bass button fits it very well plus the slight treble roll is nice. 990 does not need the added warmth really just something that does well at rolling treble. The stack would work but liquid spark would be the better option honestly… 990 is quite unforgiving… that’s one you have to try to really know if its right for you. I know alot who cant deal with that much treble lol
It is a step up so it should be more expensive, uts okay to cross it off though
Depends entirely on the headphones. Asgard is fantastic but against zen cans stack… asgard sounds bigger but more colored and seems to do better with details. Zen are quite warm. Both have slight roll on the treble and asgard I feel does better in the mids
Based on your description I believe the 880 fits me better based on your description of sound! Again, I’m coming from an Corsair HS60, shit gaming headset (directional sound, uh? error)
Does Asgard 3 beat the Zen Cans/Dac stack in your opinion? Would it improve my experience by a lot having a Dac if I’d go with Asgard3?
I’m trying to stay around 400€ budget… 880 for 160€ + Asgard for 260€… or simply go with 880 and Ifi Zen Can + Dac stack (the stack together for 300€)?
Its debatable, my opinion personally? I’ve owned both and asgard is still sitting on my desk. I know how to eq so a bass button is kind of pointless to me in my opinion and I’m not fond of the other button xspace. It’s rather subjective… warm and bassy but a bit intimate or wide and spacious, colored, and a bit more impactful.
Will need to get clarification on whether zen can is able to run 600 ohm beyers, it should since zen dac almost can. The problem with the zen is the balanced cables. They are best connected together through their balanced 4.4 pentaconn ports on the back instead of rca cables, separate purchase, and in order to get the most power out of the zen the headphone will need special cabling for the 4.4mm balanced in the front… single ended port works just fine hell just zen dac alone can power alot it’s just the added extras really do add up.
As for asgard 3… it would still need a dac which puts it out of budget for you less you want to search the used markets for one… better off with the zen if you cant find a good enough price on the asgard as you’d still want like an e30 or mobius dac for it
Wow wow wow. This was an awesome write-up thanks @Falenkor!
While keeping the above in mind have you had the chance to test PC38x? What are your thoughts there as far as imaging and soundstage for corridor FPS like Siege or CSGO?
