I was just starting down the DAC/Amp path, and pretty quickly decided that DIY might be the path I take, mostly because I can. I am a computer scientist and software engineer, that used to be an electrical engineering student at one point, and worked as an embedded engineer for several years.
I have done a couple of super cheesy horrible DIY amps, mostly to learn what things make an amp better or worse, and I agree, amps are really about avoiding some pitfalls that lead to bad noise floor and interference.
DACs are where I am learning a bit more right now. I am working on a whole software driven parametric EQ and simulated tube system. I am not sure where I am heading with the interface, but there is some fun to be had here.
I am sure my view is somewhat skewed from having jumped into DIY after a couple of very affordable options, but the price to happiness ratios get out of whack very fast on this gear.
Also why do the balanced options from most of the brands get gated at the mid tier? I have to spend $400 to get a Schitt stack that does balanced output. A portable, like the Qudelix 5k can do it for about 1/4 the cost.
This is what got me to look into DIY in the first place, since I knew the parts weren’t that expensive. The knobs, switches, buttons, and connectors, are actually the expensive bits.
Great on the DIY stuff…I have been doing this with amps for years, late 60’s. Very rewarding a times!! lol. A little smoke every once an awhile!
The balanced cost question is an interesting one. Depending on how balanced you want or need. Desktop or portable leads to costs with the electrical parts connectors in the back and front, and this also reflects on the case size to fit it all in. Pentacom 4.4mm , dual 3 pin xlr, 4 pin xlr, or all the above.
So many use cases etc all influence the cost.
Actually for a desktop balanced setup $400 is really on the low end for cost…
In the Schiit solution they use a “full” size RK27 fully balanced pot…again more cost.
Then there is the power usually associated with a balanced device (whether really needed or not) adds to cost…
As you indicate that portable device with a balanced solution for $199…can be done, but would it sell really well to the headphone users out here etc…who often dont think $400 is a lot at all!!
So many things to consider for sure…
The Passlabs ACP + dit kit for $199 only SE but its reallt sweet fot the price of admission. And the kiddies can actually learn something along the way!
I am torn on the right answer, but I am starting to lean toward 4 pin XLR, since it is a nice middle ground on the cost vs functionality, and it is easy to get the 4 pin to “whatever you want” cable".
the Schiit solution they use a “full” size RK27 fully balanced pot…again more cost.
Pots are a whole thing, and I think that is the same one in my desktop volume knob. I tend to prototype with digital pots with button pairs due to the costs.
A little smoke every once an awhile!
Yep, I have done that a couple times, and it is part of the process.
I own a portable, and don’t want to make one, the stock ones in that space are a pretty good value. Both the Fiio BTR5 and Qudelix 5k are a fantastic value and solve for DAC and Amp at the same, and give you some cool Bluetooth features too ( they are wonderful for work from home people ). I couldn’t make all of that for less, and my form factor would not as “consumer friendly”.
There’s great stuff at most price brackets, and also less than great stuff as well, all depends. I do think it’s hard to escape the idea of “you get what you pay for”, but that doesn’t mean that just because something is less expensive doesn’t mean it won’t provide a quality experience. All depends on the level of performance you are really after
Also in regards to the cheap balanced stuff, honestly at the sub 500 price point, I’d rather build out a quality single ended design with nicer parts than have to skimp on parts quality and add complexity with a balanced design, think there’s just more value to be had with single ended designs than balanced in the lower price brackets imo, less tradeoffs have to be made
That’s really what counts in the end. Honestly I’ve stopped looking inside things at this point because it isn’t exactly always indicative of how something performs. I’ve heard examples of things with high cost but low bom/simplistic designs, yet they can still justify their cost even compared to diy options, I feel like with the higher end (for some designs at least) you are really paying for the amount of work it took to design the circuit and r&d and all that rather than the cost of parts (so it’s always a bit irritating to see people dismiss things based on design alone without actually taking a listen. But bom can be the majority of the cost as well depending on the design, once you get into some of the higher end stuff the cost of components like transformers, caps, resistors, etc can get up there, as they get more important in contributing to overall sq). In the end the sound is what matters the most and should be the driving factor in deciding a purchase, but that doesn’t always hold true for everyone lol. If it has to look ultra fancy/complicated inside then so be it, just make sure it actually sounds the part as well lol. (And on the note of design/topology, I’ve come to the conclusion that most designs/styles can sound pretty excellent, just depends on the care and attention that are put into them)
I would agree, there are some great combo units that do it all. Fiio has stuff in that $150 and under range, like the K5, K3, Q3, or even the budget E10K. The ZenDac is pretty solid in the under $200.
For many headphones, not all, that support balanced output, the sound stage is wider when you do it, so electing for single ended seems like volunteering for less.
Again, my beef is that the parts aren’t really that expensive, given that I have purchased the parts and assembled the devices I am familiar with the costs as a one off. I am certain that insert random amp manufacturer here gets better pricing that I do for buying one or two of a thing. Balanced is one more connector, and one more wire, that should not double the cost of an amp.
All of the under $200 combo units that are balanced prove that too. Fiio K3, BT5, BTR5, Qudelix 5k, iFi Hip-dac, ZenDac, and some others. They can be affordable, I just think that some of the other companies have figured out that balance is a way to extract extra cash from their customers.
I think you are correct, but we need to acknowledge that a fair bit of what we are paying for any DAC & Amp is the enclosure along with the connectors and input selectors. The differences inside the box are pretty subtle at this point, especially if we stay in the solid state only realm.
I’d pretty much disagree, a single ended amp can be just as wide or wider, really all depends on the design. Balanced is just a design choice and doesn’t really dictate any sonic qualities, you can have a balanced amp with a fairly substantial stage, and a balanced amp with a pretty compact one too, same goes for single ended. My comparison comes from judging single ended amps vs balanced ones around the more entry level prices, and admittedly I do think that there is more to be had overall on the cheaper single ended amps than balanced. But again all depends, there’s not really a true way to compare balanced to single ended in a way that’s actually apples to apples (because single ended on balanced designs are mostly handicapped/afterthoughts just due to the nature of a balanced amp, so it’s not really fair to compare). So it’s hard to really say. But just my experience with let’s say the 200-300 buck amp market, the amps I’d consider lead that class in overall sound quality tend to lean single ended, so moreso just what I’ve personally experienced. All depends on implementation of course
For my amp/dac journey, I’ve somewhat ignored if something is balanced or not, and just used the preferred inputs/outputs. And somehow, the mass majority of amps I’ve ended up with are single ended with some balanced amps mixed in, which has really lead to the conclusion for me that it really doesn’t matter or dictate quality for the most part, just use whatever the amp prefers. I do see the benefits for balanced interconnects with common mode rejection and whatnot, but of something is internally balanced or if it has balanced output doesn’t really bring anything tangible over single ended for me. But again I’m not opposed to balanced either, just have to make sure if I have a chain to use it balanced, otherwise not worry about it
Would absolutely disagree there, but it does depend on what range of products you’re talking about. But idk, even budget stuff is more than subtle from my experience
Just one of those things where if it’s balanced output cool, and if it’s not that’s cool too, doesn’t really mean anything outside of what connector and cabling you use, it’s not like the headphones care if they are balanced or not. A good amp is a good amp regardless of if it’s balanced or not, just pick a good amp and you are good to go lol. Think it’s a bit irritating that having balanced has become a marketing gimmick to try and convince people an amp is “better” rather than just a design choice (same thing done with measurements, but not getting into that one lol)
To be fair though, about half of those companies using balanced for marketing aren’t even really internally truly differential or actually balanced, just converting to single ended internally then going back to balanced so they can say they have balanced in and out, but isn’t actually balanced inside
I am betting most of us also have headphones, and some might even have speakers. I tend to agree that most closed back and IEMs tend to feel narrow ( I am certain there are some exceptions that I haven’t experienced ). Open back headphones are my preferred listening experience, mostly because of the sound stage and imaging.
I tend to use IEMs during the workday, because they are cooler and more comfortable, and it is easy to pull one ear off to talk to my wife or take a delivery. I also work at a couple other locations, so portability is nice. I really didn’t get into IEMs until I started getting headaches from the sound pressure created by the ANC from standard consumer headphones, and started looking into passive isolation options.
IMO there is no real benefit or difference in SE vs balanced for soundstage…this is primarily coming from the source and how it was mic’d (placement) and them the mixing in the process…
Differences in sound can be subtle whether its SS or tubes…very subjective IMO.
Like Doc at BH tells it…“its the circuit stupid”…chase all u want with boutique coupling caps, wires cables, it gets to really splitting hairs here for most of us…and alot of us love this part of this subjective
search for audio greatness!
Golly Gee…this $149 Schiit Vali 2+ with a old GE tube…included in the price is just “spanking” my D8000 Pros…a $4299 set of cans hooked SE to a $149 amp!
I can only agree with @Mon.
On the Singxer Sda 2C Dac/amp that has both, I liked XLR a little better than single ended.difference was minimally better.someone who puts that on can’t hear that at all.
But everything else is just as good, even if it is single ended.
The Feliks Euforia also has only single ended and Rca connection and everything is wonderful.
Everything is just as dead quiet in the background and the sound is a feast for the eyes.
I asked the manufacturer about the new hybrid amplifier that is on the way because I had similar concerns about XLR and he said it would be feasible, but it costs more and requires more effort.
I should rather save the money or invest in a better transformer that would bring more.
Apart from that, it can also lead to other problems.
If you read purely on the theory or description from the net.
If you read the theory or the description on the net, you will find that single ended is perfectly sufficient for home use, which it already was in the 60s, but the technology was not as sophisticated.
That’s where I think this misconception comes from.
Xlr makes more sense for studio applications where much more technology is available and mainly to prevent noise,jitter etc…
This is also confirmed by people in event technology.
I also built an adapter from single-ended to Xlr for fun and for fun, you can’t hear any difference.
Although the signal is disconnected directly at the Xlr connector.
I built the adapter because I put XLR plugs on the headphone cable.
Probably I can build it back to jack because my equipment is mostly single ended after it grew.
I would rather the manufacturers would leave out XLR and offer a second Rca output and invest the rest of the money in better capacitors, resistors or op amps, audio chips.
That would add a lot more to the sound.
Agreed, and I think that is why some people don’t think there is a difference. I find that on most gear that does actual balanced end-to-end, there is a noticeable difference.
I know I broke a trace and added blue wire to fix a balanced output on a cheap amp a friend bought. We were redoing a couple of other issues, and I figured why not while I was there.
Most wont notice differences even on a high dollar “properly” implemented end to end balanced setup…
You need to have very good source material,level set any amplitude differences between SE and Bal on the amp.
Your headphones need to have very good resolving capabilities…and you the listener has to be honest and objective.
With all the different implementations its hard at times to know what you really have without a schematic.
And the schematics and specs lie occasionally. I found a pair of unconnected traces that were supposed to be wired on a serial port PCI card about two years ago. Monoprice was not very happy when I pointed out that selling PCI serial port cards is pretty sketchy, when they aren’t wired up, even more so when they label them IEEE-1284 compatible. Odd thing, this isn’t the first time an engineer made my life harder by not connecting traces on a “serial port”.
My eyes are usually more trustworthy, that said as I get older, the first step is usually ditching the glasses, and maybe getting magnification, sigh.
It was fairly recent, but I was transferring some data between low power embedded devices. One was a stored value card ( think decentralized disconnected debit card for DoD personnel ) reader and the other was a vending machine. They go fairly low tech due to security concerns, but nobody want to leak signal data on an aircraft carrier.
