I was watching this older Scott Wilkinson podcast where Tyll from innerfidelity and Steve Guttenburg debate the value of measurments, such as a frequency response graphs for consumers. It’s a fun debate and I wanted to put together a poll and see where people leaned, preferably after watching the full video to hear the arguments.
And no, you can’t choose, “Well they are both right… because…” pick a side! I want to know where you lean. No room for nuance here! Well not in the poll… feel free to comment and discuss it though. =)
So are measurements REALLY valuable as a general consumer (not prosumer)?
Objective measurements (ie Frequency Response Graph) are important for making a purchasing decision and should definitely be considered. Subjective reviews and subjective listening are not enough on their own. Objective measurements help inform the buyer.
Objective measurements are not important, can “color” your impressions, and only subjective listening should really be used for making a purchasing decision. Measurements don’t tell you anything you would not otherwise hear on your own.
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And just to clarify, both sides agree that measurements don’t tell the whole ‘story’ and subjective listening and personal preference should ultimately be the final deciding factor when deciding the “right” headphone for yourself. The question is whether objective measurements should play a heavy roll in that decision and whether or not they have any real value to a consumer.
I believe in measurements, because I don’t trust anyone’s judgement. Not even my own. I can’t tell the difference between anything when I AB things, and it takes lots of listening for me to realize big differences in sound. For example, the stock cable for my K712 died and I bought a cheap Chinese mini-XLR cable on Amazon. It took me weeks to realize it sounded like shit. I wasn’t expecting a difference so it didn’t even register.
I use measurements to check for any glaring issues something might have before I even listen by they are not the ultimate deal breaker or anything. Check out m50 measurements to me they look fine but once you listen to them they have issues.
So where’s the middle ground? You should consider both. You should check the specs and measurements to make sure there’s no glaring issue, and then consider subjective opinions. You should be in the middle because all subjective or all objective isn’t the way to go lol
Yeah kinda agree. My specific case that made me not rely solely on measurements was for my airist dac. Apparently it measures terribly, yet I find it to sound a bit nicer then my El dac or D50s. Smoother almost with more air. I think it’s hard to relate numbers directly to that visceral feel.
A simple frequency response graph will tell you a few things, but if that’s it I would vote against. But look at posted information at InnerFidelity: IM tests (intermodulation), Pulse tests, waterfall charts. etc. As a group those measurements tell a lot and ought to be paid attention to prior to purchase.
Typically R2R dacs don’t measure well, but still sound great, like tube amps for example. As long as the specs and measurements are par for the course, you should be fine and focus on real listening or subjective aspects
Objective v.s. other people’s subjective: about 50/50; I need both to make a decision. Can’t fully trust other people’s subjective impressions; and objective measurements don’t tell all that I need to know.
Objective v.s. my subjective: about 20/80. This is probably self-explaining.
I’m with the “using measurements to make as a tool to make a subjective decision” camp. Anyone who says that measurements aren’t important is willfully blinding themselves to valuable information. Anyone who makes decisions solely on measurements is limiting themselves.
The problem is this often this often becomes measurements vs internet blowhards, which is different.
Measurements have value, they just don’t tell you how a system will sound. And obsession over things like SNR are just insane, no one is going to be able to hear the difference between 80dB SNR or 120db SNR, sure you can measure it but what does it tell you?
FFT’s of single tones can reveal things about the sounds of an amp, but only really if the amp has significant distortion, 2nd Harmonic distortion is usually considered to be why Valve amps sound good.
Measurements have more value in areas where there are gross inaccuracies like transducers (speakers/headphones), they will probably convey at least some of what you will hear.
So I definitely leaned more towards Tyll’s side of the argument at first… but I think Steve has a point in that relying to heavily on measurements, especially before you’ve heard a pair of headphones, could potentially rob yourself of something you might otherwise like or prefer.
For me, personally, I think the NDH 20s are a good example. In terms of frequency response, they do not measure the way I would prefer. I would not have expected to like them at all… I only tried them because of Zeo’s incredibly subjective experience. But trying them, I REALLY really like them. They are still a top headphone for me. I’d still put them right after the Elex/Clear in terms of my ranking.
Sendy Aiva are similar in that they don’t measure particularly great, but I would still take them over a lot of headphones that measure better.
I literally have them on my head and have only been listening for about 20 minutes or so… but yeah… so far so good. Honestly extremely close to the Elex… to the point I’m not sure I would recommend them to anyone who already has the Elex unless you REALLY want to get maybe an extra 5% refinement or so (given the price difference)… lol. But I’ll see how I feel after longer listening and some more A/Bing.
I’ll definitely keep them though and offer my brother the Elex.
I think another argument against using measurements is that if you don’t perceive a ‘glaring’ issue when you hear something, then it shouldn’t really matter if that issue exists. If you enjoy something, you enjoy it.
If I listen to a pair of headphones and I really like them, then I think being ‘blissfully’ happy might be a good way to go, lol. If I see a measurement that tells me I “shouldn’t be happy”… then it might just get into my head and skew my perception. I feel like this has definitely happened to me in the past… and it’s something I actively push my brain against.
whatr I mean by glaring issue would be sometyhing like too big of a treble spike at a frequency I am particularly sensitive at like 8k. of If I have a glaring issue when I listen to something I just use the measurements to find out what that issue could be