yeah, any differences a cable could make is due to a difference in resistance rather than the material (gold, copper, unobtanium or whatever) and that is only going to affect transucers with an uneven impedance response.
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Could be because measuring properly is not hitting “test all” on some expensive testing device. Or because those who live and die by numbers never bothered to test, better to have a strong opinion than a weak fact (or was it the other way round?).
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I’ve recently built a new chain with great transparency, so I’ve decided to deal with all of the controversy once and for all for myself. I didn’t care if I would hear any difference between cables or ddcs, because if I can hear decent difference, then great, I have a new tool for changing the sound to my preference, and if I can’t hear any difference, then great - I don’t have to spend the time and money for these tweaks
The main testing chain: PC ->(usb)SMSL D1SE (standard mode) → Soloist 3XP with charger (all vivids) → DT 880 600 ohm. I’m quite fond of this chain in general and I want to say a special thank you to @Pokrog, who helped with his experience and answered a ton of my questions
This is going to be a long post, sorry. Feel free to jump to conclusions chapter
People have always told me that I have golden ears, so I’ve decided that this setup is good enough and that I don’t need the mighty Susvara to hear the difference, if there is any. And if susvara-level transparency is necessary, then there is no point chasing that difference anyway, because for me transparency isn’t the most important thing in this hobby
I’m not going to stir up conflicts or convince you of anything; just take it as a part of my personal journey
DDCs. Ifi iSilencer+ has like 95% of positive reviews and I’ve seen only two really negative comments somewhere that said that it removed dynamics and sucked all emotions from the music. For me that would be the most unpleasant effect possible
In my main testing chain, the difference was obvious from the start. Just in case, I’ve played one of the most emotional tracks that I have, and after I’ve added iSilencer+ between my pc and usb cable, I’ve immediately stopped headbanging. Noise was slightly reduced indeed, but with that noise was also removed bass, dynamics, depth and any positive emotions. The sound became flat and soulless. So that two people were spot on. That was even more obvious on my SW51 tube amp. This kind of difference can provide the illusion of a much cleaner sound, but if you lower bass and mids with EQ, you’ll get a similar effect and it won’t ruin the sound as much.
But quite a lot of people use this device to improve the sound of budget dongle dacs, so additional testing chain was built: Samsung M31 → Avani → iSilencer+ with 2 adapters → Moondrop Kato and results were same, so I can confidently say that iSilencer+ is the most horrible product that I’ve purchased so far in my audiophile journey
Unfortunately, I was unable to test my reclocker, because it’s not compatible with my dac. I will get another reclocker at some point
So, usb cables. I expected to hear very little to no difference. I was very serious about testing them. I was ready to listen for 40-120 minutes before jumpung to any conclusions, but reality shocked me. I’ve heard an immediate difference and it took me only 3 minutes to figure out exactly how the sound changed. I’ve tested 4 shortest branded usb cables from aliexpress, one was silver coated OFC, others were OCC copper. Would you believe me if I told you that a $20-$30 usb cable can completely change the sound of the system? I sure know I wouldn’t take any claims like that seriously, until I’ve experienced it first hand. That difference was so big, that it was obvious even on my old budget $50 active 2.1 system with an official SNR of 70. Silver cable made the sound way more holographic, but increased the jitter a lot, bad cable. Another cable made the sound more liquid, added accurate room reverbations, added sweet unnaturalness, some vintage fun to the sound, and made it punchier; this cable is now my go-to cable for synthwave or pop music. Another cable made the sound ridiculously liquid and timbre-correct, this is now my go-to cable for acoustic music and vocals, it gives me goosebumbps with some soundtracks on some setups. Another cable added sometimes spooky 3d effects, sometimes really bad soundstage changes, this cable also made the sound very unnatural, very bad cable
XLR interconnects. Jumping from $7 OFC copper to $70 OCC copper cables made solid improvements in terms of liquidity and noise level. The faster the amp and headphone I’m using, the bigger is the liquidity impact. It even introduced a new problem for me - now I can’t EQ some systems as much as I could before this jump, because now I can hear it when some EQ’d range is out of phase - my friend, who is sound engineer, explained to me that when you EQ stuff up above 1.5-2db, it feels off even if you can’t hear it, because of that out of phase thing. Same happened after EQ-ing down, but to a lesser degree
I’m not going to stop here. Now, I want to try budget neotech interconnects, like Nei-3004. I need 2 pairs of 5m cables, so buying really expensive interconnects is out of the quesion for me. I really loved the way Zeos moved his pc to the closet in his house in one room, so I’ve decided to do the same to remove the pc noise. I’m also really curious about unshielded XLRs for uncapped soundstage, so if you can share some great options, I’d love to hear them, feel free to PM me
RCA interconnects. Pretty much the same jump, but the cables I’ve purchased drop dynamics, but make the sound more liquid - very bad cables
Power cables. I’ve yet only tried two cheap branded cables from aliexpress, but they both changed the sound for the worse - the effect was pretty dramatic, which I didn’t expect at all. Cable from OCC copper dropped dynamics, but improved liquidity, bass also became quite bloated and muddy. I’ve measured 2.5 db bass increase. Pure silver cable from thin wires improved spacious effects, but ruined the sound everywhere except treble. I’ve read that 300-500 hours of burn-in is ok for power cables. I don’t know how important it is, but this is ridiculous anyway. I don’t need a cable that requires so much burn in. I need to be able to return it within two weeks. So, I gave these cables 72 hours of non-stop burn-in. I heard zero difference before and after, so I’ve returned them both. I’ve seen a lot of great reviews of Yarbo, Neotech and Furutech power cables, so that is probably my next stop. I need some timbre accurate power cords for music and some 3D wow effects cables as well for my HT. I’m open to suggestions
Headphone cables. I had to use different headphones to test it. Changing the cable on my Hifiman EDXS… it was a moment of startling realization that the cable defined half of the sound experience for me. Stock cable is a joke. I didn’t like the silver-plated OCC copper cable from aliexpress, it sounded jittery in the highs. I’m using the HD Zeus cable with them for now, it is way better; it gives better depth, smoother highs and better liquidity. I will definitely explore multiple headphone cables in the future
Speaker cables. At this point I’ve already heard enough difference between other cables, so I’ve purchased good branded cables. I can’t compare them with anything for now, but I like the sound
Conclusions:
- If you have an open mind and are curious about cable differences, you don’t need to spend a fortune on a transparent setup to figure it out, although sometimes transparency is essential. You just need to know where to look for that difference - you need test-tracks for timbre, punch, dynamics, soundstage and bass, and you need to look for the difference in liquidity and smoothness. I’ve tried to pass a regular blind A/B test with different filters of a single dac and have failed miserably. My girlfriend was laughing at me when she showed me the results. But I can still hear minimal difference between them if I’m listening to one filter for a couple of hours and then switch to a different one. Or when I’m switching the filter while the music is playing. So the easiest way to hear a difference is not a fast multitest, but listening to one set of cables for a while, and then switching them for something else. Fast swapping will just confuse your mind at some point. If you can hear difference between different filters of one dac, then you will definitely hear difference between different cables, because the difference is like 20 times big
- You really can’t trust these reviews on aliexpress, I guess people prefer justifying their purchases more than hearing them “objectively”. People sing praises to ridiculous garbage there
- Jump from OFC to OCC copper is noticeable everywhere in the system and for me personally, it is worth spending money on cables made from better materials, provided they serve their purpose and don’t ruin essential aspects of the sound
- I don’t like the sound of silver, period. No pure silver cables, no silver plating or other metal mixing of the conductor anymore. It just doesn’t sound right to me no matter where I put it in the chain. And I don’t care how pure or expensive the silver has to be to sound good
- For me, the sound impact of upgrading the wire goes like this:
Headphone cable > usb cable > power cable > interconnects. I know that it might sound ridiculous, but upgrading the usb cable has the biggest value in my opinion, if you are into usb audio. Buying a $20 cable can transform the sound as much as upgrading your dac from $150 to $700 one or buying a completely different dac - I understand that the point of diminishing returns and hearing abilities of different people are different. But if a different cable can add goosebumps or headbanging, then for me it is well worth it, if it’s reasonably priced
- Connecting all gear to a dedicated breaker made a small, but solid improvement of both dynamics and noise level
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Width, depth, imaging, separation, timbre, liquidity, sweetness…
All of these terms are things that enthusiasts either know, or learn. We can hear them.
Can we measure them? Can a FR curve tell us anything about these? What about a multimeter? Maybe an oscilloscope? Maybe getting a super precise mass measurement, and cross reference it with exactingly precise physical measurements to see if there is a correlation to sound with different ratios of physical dimensions. Hell, while we’re at it, we could dissolve some cables in an aggressive caustic solvent and run the result through a spectrograph and see if that could tell us if minute element inclusions are responsible for changing the sound stage.
While I have a healthy dose of skepticism about any claims of performance (especially claims made by people with skin in the game), I am also similarly skeptical about the all-powerful “science” that can tell us “everything we need to know”. It wasn’t long at all in our past that “science” told us to put leeches on the body of the sick so they could draw out the ill humors.
Science is not a body of knowledge to bludgeon those with whom we disagree. It is a logical approach to learning. There is still quite a lot we do not understand and have no effective way of measuring. Hell, there is still plenty we don’t even know we should be trying to measure!
If we really want to know whether or not “cables make a difference” it wouldn’t be that hard to set up two systems to test this. Using identical dac, amp, and headphone, fed from the same digital source, but with entirely different cables. Wrap all the cables in electric shrink wrap or electrical tape to prevent test subjects from being able to identify differences in cables, and survey a few hundred people on which system they prefer. I bet the results would be interesting to say the least. More science-y would be to run lots of such A/B blind tests, with only one cable (usb, power, interconnect, headphone) different between each system.
If someone has neither tried on their own to see if they can hear a difference, nor run such a test, then I have a healthy dose of skepticism for any claims they may make about cables being “snake oil”. I presume they are happy with whatever cable they have, and are too intellectually lazy to try something different. We justify things to ourselves for lots of reasons, and money might have nothing whatever to do with it.
Personally, I am new enough to high quality audio that I am not sure my ears could detect a difference. I am quite agnostic about whether or not cables will help -my- setup. Maybe they would, but I’m not ready to test it out yet. I surely believe that poorly made cables could hurt a setup’s sound (bad products seem to be detrimental to anything’s performance once you hit a certain level). Whether or not “great” cables make a noticeable improvement over “normal” ones, well, I’ll probably have to find out for myself one day.
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ah yes, the old classic “scientific method” of letting people who probably have beats headphones and airplane earbuds evaluate cables on a system that has much bigger problems than cables. surely those results mean something.
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I am a chemist and for the first time I hear that caustic soda boils cables. And then when you “dissolve” them, what will you measure? 
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I will put the resulting solution in a photo-spectrometer to analyze the elemental composition, so I can decode the resulting spectrograph for elemental inclusions, hoping to find a large, but statistically insignificant (say, on the order of 1% or thereabouts) inclusion of otherwise non conductive elements, Sodium, or Carbon, or such. The presence of accidental inclusions at just the right ratio should indicate a sonically superior “oops” factor, for which I can charge an extra $50,000!
Serious time, though. As I said, I am very much agnostic to the ultimate question being posed in this thread. I just find laughable the idea that “the science” has already told us that it’s all “snake oil”. Maybe it is, maybe not. There’s so much we can’t really measure effectively that I don’t think we have instruments to tell us all of the truth on this topic.
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Nice to see you back and I am curious is the difference based on cable material or construction
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Interesting to see how both parties are arguing. My take, just try it yourself. If you can’t hear the difference, then you’re in luck because you have one less thing to think about, but if you do, I’m telling you, it’s a really interesting place to explore.
You can check out Sonvs Apparatvs if you are interested in discussing the differences in cables even further.
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That’s exactly me 
And i’m too afraid of finding a difference to go there: that would be too much money for me.
Since I haven’t seen any proof and haven’t tried it by myself, I won’t argue with “cable-beleivers”: if they hear a difference and that makes them happy, fine.
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Nothing at all wrong with that! There’s no sin in being happy with what you have. I’m in much the same boat, quite satisfied with the stock cabling on everything but my headphones, and only then because the stiff, microphonic crap cables packed with Focal headphones is not worthy of the product they sell.
There is, however, a sneer in my tone for people who make definitive claims as a tool to deride the decisions of others without having actually investigated whether or not they are speaking truly.
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I never believed in cables. I usually buy $30 cables from Amazon.
I have a 64 audio and switched to the silver cable that came with it. Big sound difference. Better clarity, treble and bass.
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Well-said! Best post I’ve read on this cable controversy. Take-away: a proper understanding of what science is can help us avoid conflating the current state of scientific knowledge–and scientific theories–with “complete and irrefutable truth”. I venture to say that the history of science is full of examples of phenomena observed by the senses that were not explained or even supported by the science of the day.
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I studied statistics and I’m an engineer.
I hate when people act like they know with 100% certainty what every human can and can’t hear.
Especially the guys that say they studied that stuff in school and do it for a living. Clearly they never studied statistics.
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No real engineer (or scientist) would give a definitive answer to this question, myself included.
Keeping an open/unbiased mind is part of the job.
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Had some thoughts I want to get off my chest and needed somewhere to put them. This seems like a reasonable place.
So I had an experience recently where I bought a headphone from a (very) small company that didn’t come with its own cable, and I used a cheap NewFantasia cable. I then changed to a Hart cabIe so I could switch between SE and balanced. I didn’t notice a difference particularly between these two cables. Then, in communicating with one of the people who make the headphones, he said that he liked such-and-such more expensive cable (off AliExpress) on the headphones the best. So on a lark I bought it.
And it sounded different than the NewFantasia and Hart cables. Meaningfully different. And in particular it had more treble. More communication with the headphone maker and he says, oh yeah it’s a silver cable they have more treble.
I get annoyed by people who use terms like “confirmation bias” and “placebo” with cables because they’re usually misusing those terms. Both confirmation bias and the placebo effect (which are different) rely on the person getting a certain result because they expect that result. I didn’t expect the cable to sound more treble-y. That’s not confirmation bias or placebo effect, that’s just the cable sounding different. (Lachlan on Passion for Sound recently did a video where he had two blind cables and was able to identify which one was copper and which one was silver based on the sound. Again, Confirmation Bias and Placebo Effect do not account for this.) (Also as WaveTheory has pointed out, Placebo Effect has never been studied outside of medical treatments.) Basically everyone who “believes” in cables (which is to say, knows that different cables sound different) has a story similar to mine, where they only believed it reluctantly.
But Lachlan and other people who talk about cables will also tell you that different cables sound different on different systems, and don’t always sound better; often they’ll have examples of more expensive cables they don’t think sounds better than cheaper cables and so forth. And some systems/setups you’ll hear differences between particular cables, and some you don’t.
The problem is that I don’t feel like there’s ever been a proper, comprehensive study of this. They’re either disingenuous stunt comparisons like “a bunch of randos thought my coathanger sounded better than this expensive cable” or just “they don’t measure different therefore they are the same because 100% of the human audio experience is captured by measurements or something”. And there’s so much unscientific nonsense like people saying “all USB cables do is carry 1s and 0s so they’re all the same” which is simply not actually how USB cables actually work. (Any cable is carrying analog information, so the 1s and 0s have been converted into something else and may be sensitive to interference and lost data or whatever. Lots of other people who know more about the technology than I do have written about this.) (If any of you know of studies that back up any claims that are reliable, I’d love to hear about them.)
The result of all of this is that it’s basically impossible to answer a simple question like “what’s the best cable for my system” without buying every cable and trying it. There’s rules of thumb that you shouldn’t spend more than X amount of money on cables if your system costs Y amount of money, but that basically tells you nothing. So you end up buying the cable that fits your budget, even though a cheaper cable might sound better, or the best cable might be the one that costs just a little bit more.
Which is frustrating. It seems like with so much money involved in audio equipment, somebody would have figured out how to study this stuff in a more comprehensive and realistic way that accounts for the limitations of ABX testing and how people with more experience in audio can pick out things that laypeople cannot. And then you’d actually know what in the cable business is snake oil and what isn’t. But as it is, all you have is manufacturer sites that make big claims, a bunch of random subjective opinions, and a slew of people who seem to think that reality should fit their scientific understanding instead of the reverse. And it’s very frustrating. Like we should have a consensus of what difference oxygen free copper makes vs. other kinds of copper, what kind of insulation does what, what kind of home interference most effects audio and how to determine if you might need a power conditioner or whatever, without having to buy all the stuff and figure it out via trial-and-error. And we just don’t have that, just people insisting they know everything based on extremely limited sets of information.
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One more thing: this is one of the best (and only) actually good treatment of the issue of cables I’ve come across (if you have your own let me know): The Great Headphone Cable Debate: Do expensive cables matter? - Headphonesty
And a lot of the sections conclude with stuff like “this hasn’t been studied” or “this is difficult to study”, which emphasizes the actual problem. The whole thing concludes that if they matter, cables are a small part of the sound and you should see it as a tweak, like an unchanging EQ tweak. I think that’s a bit misleading; cable believers claim for example that the right cable can bring out more details, and that isn’t something that EQ can typically do. The article also doesn’t emphasize the problem with confirmation bias is that it doesn’t account for getting results you don’t expect. But overall this is as good a treatment of the subject as we have (afaik).
I just wish people with resources in the business were actually trying to figure out and set up the kind of controlled trials that would account for perceived problems and try to clear all this up.
I am inclined to believe that cables can make a difference, especially with particularly sensitive drivers like CA Andromeda or something.
Lachlan on Passion for Sound recently did a video where he had two blind cables and was able to identify which one was copper and which one was silver based on the sound
But can you?
And there’s so much unscientific nonsense like people saying “all USB cables do is carry 1s and 0s so they’re all the same” which is simply not actually how USB cables actually work
It kind of is. Yes, the signal is “analog” in that the voltage must go up and down in continuous steps, but the difference between the 0 and 1 state is so large that even the worst cable on the planet will be able to signal the discrete 0s and 1s properly, unless it’s super long. The point of saying that digital cables don’t matter is that if they do have losses, you will very obviously be able to tell by hearing skipping, popping, or completely cutting out. If you’re not having these obvious problems, USB cables do not affect the audio of the output in the way that an analogue cable could. It’s the same with HDMI cables, you either get a picture or you don’t.
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