On what are you basing these conclusions? One theory I’ve seen is that with a printer or something you can do checksums you make sure the data you’re getting on the other end is the same as it should be and asking for a new copy of it isn’t. You can’t do that with audio. You’re assuming missing information would be major enough to be obvious, but the equivalent of a skipped frame every so often in video (which to your hdmi example might not be noticiable) might introduce a small amount of noise in the signal, enough to say, make your music sound less crisp and clear where a better cable might fix that problem. Lachlan did another video where he was able to find measurable differences in USB cables, but had no way to specifically correlate those differences to anything that translated to sound other than listening.
My point here isn’t that I know the above to be true, it’s that we don’t really have the science one way or another because we haven’t done the research, not in an academic way. No one has. Right now it’s all theory to explain the real phenomena of people hearing different usb cables sounding different. Maybe it is psychological, maybe it isn’t, but you can’t actually know it is just because you have a particular understanding of how USB cables work.
As for whether I can hear the difference between copper and silver, I did in a non-blind setting (at least with one specific silver cable, the only one I own), but I don’t have the unlabeled cables to try it in a blind way (or a convenient way to have someone else switch the cable while I wear a blindfold or whatever). And even then it’d just be such a small sampling; again I really want someone to do a proper study but the money I guess doesn’t exist for it. (And companies that have a motive to fund one, like say AudioQuest, couldn’t really be trusted to do it since it’s be like a tobacco company finding a study on whether cigarettes cause lung cancer or whatever.)
but had no way to specifically correlate those differences to anything that translated to sound other than listening
If you can’t hear the difference what is the point?
we haven’t done the research, not in an academic way
I would agree with this for analogue signalling, but digital signalling simply does not work like that. You don’t need to perform a study on the obvious. It is psychological, there is no question.
As for whether I can hear the difference between copper and silver, I did in a non-blind setting
I don’t think this is relevant then, but if it makes you feel better then by all means continue.
Well you can do checksum on data packages. Correct?
So you can test a USB cable 10 times, 100 times or 1000 times or even 10.000 times if you want.
If the cable never drops a single package, checksum is always correct.
You can even test the cable with proper cable tester. Just to be sure that the cable works very well.
So the cable works, correct?
Now.
You use the same cable. Only in different “mode” to send audio.
Why would the previously tested working cable somehow work worse and suddenly start dropping “audio bits”? Not including the possible issues with PC or DAC or any device.
With printers.
I have used extra long USB-cables between PC and Printer. You actually can “see” the loss of data since the printing times might be +15sec with single paper or not print at all.
Compered with short one it’s like 2sec.
You can be sure. Data drops happen with data and audio in extra long or broken cable.
With a working cable. It just works.
This is a good way of testing! I like this a lot. However, you’d have to do it in a particular space to rule out whether or not particular EM interference makes a difference to the cable (particularly if it’s not shielded). In other words, theoretically, you could measure your cable at your place, give the cable to me, and it might measure differently at my place. I honestly don’t know.
Caveat that I’m not a USB expert or electrical engineer or have any other sort of expertise to talk about USB. I tend not to trust Amir because he gets things wrong sometimes but that doesn’t mean he’s always wrong and I haven’t had time to watch that video you posted yet. I will say though that Amir measured the old Schiit Modi (I think the second one) with and without the Schiit Eitr to improve the USB interface and they did measure as lower noise, which means at least on the interface level USB can perform differently even if not at the cable level. Once again I don’t know enough to even know what I don’t know about all this stuff.
And I just want to emphasize, I would like to have a discussion here and not an argument, especially since I know people have some hot feelings about this issue in particular. I’m not trying to “win” or score points or whatever, I just want to understand. I find it hard to believe there would be a superabundance of people who hear differences in USB cables and other cables and that it’s all psychological, but perhaps I’m wrong.
If a USB cable meets the USB specifications, it should not perform any differently, unless there are some serious interferences at your end. Even then, the only faults a that a USB cable (that meets specifications) can produce are the dropping of packets, which results in very clear interruptions to the signal (as info is missing).
As you mentioned before (at least I believe it was you but scrolling back on my phone is a pain), audio signals (to call them that) via USB do not have a way of checking if the received data matches the sent data, something that other USB transfers do (such as file copying or printing etc), therefore they just play what they receive, resulting in the drops mentioned.
In the case of USB cables that don’t meet the specifications, which there are many (including so called “audiophile” USB cables), the results of such cables are sort of “pot luck”, as they don’t match the USB specifications.
If they do something to the signal? That is possible, who knows? That is the thing with random solutions that don’t follow specifications, they give a non predictable outcome.
Could they sound “better”? Well, that depends. Audio is so subjective that maybe micro cuts of milliseconds of audio cause a sensory pleasure to some people.
The important thing at the end of the day is that you use what you feel sounds best to you.
Whether or not that is “true”, “correct” or “placebo”, who cares? It’s only you that needs to enjoy it.
It turned out I was wrong and I’m so glad I was. What changed? I learned to listen, I had better gear I became more aware of what I liked and didn’t like and had become extremely familiar with my chain, having had it stable for months until I changed a USB cable… the only change, it wasn’t even an ultra expensive cable, just something reasonable that could be bought new for $130 give or take as opposed to the $35 cable I had in there before from the same vendor no less. A friend gave it to me and it was a shorter run, 1.5 meter from the 2 meter I was using previously. Very pleasant revelation that I found surprising to say the least as I wasn’t expecting much and I did it for the neater wiring.
Yes, they all work but the level of processing that needs to be done to transfer those analog representation of bits to digital do the the PLL timing and the i2S conversion, that take work, processing. So they DON’T all sound the same after it leaves the USB input section of the DAC.
On the HDMI cable for use in audio I agree as the timing dictated by the source and not generated by the DAC.
Everyone has their own journey though, different situations, different experiences.
Even if do you have exactly that Schiit DAC that does terribly with isolating itself from its power supply, the noise will be below threshold of hearing. Almost every other DAC won’t even measure a difference.
I doubt this is reliably blind testable, but if you don’t want to and it makes you feel better about your gear then by all means.
I don’t think the processing will matter when the signal is always going to be coming in extremely cleanly regardless of cable, like any run under 3m. Even if the signal wasn’t clean, processing wouldn’t take longer or shorter causing jitter or any kind of subtle output artifact, it would work or it wouldn’t.
How are you so sure? People say they can hear a difference. There’s a measurable difference. I’m just not sure why you’re so confident here that you can state this with without any caveats.
I did state the caveats that analogue cables may make a difference. You can be confident because the measurable difference is below 115dB, which is below the threshold of hearing. People are influenced by a myriad of things outside of their control without knowing it.
EVERYTHING in the digital domain is about accurate timing not about dB threshold level of hearing. Our ears are VERY good at hearing pitch and timbre and tone. But we can’t accurately tell the difference between 1 dB of volume.
That’s not what I’m saying - the pitch and tones that are created as a result of a particularly bad DAC is below that volume level, so yes, you’re not going to hear it.
All USB-cables that are standardized or produced with USB-standards (that meets specifications) are shielded. So the location change does not change anything. Only other variation that would change is what is in the ends of the cable.
But we are ( i am) still pointing the cable.
It is +99% more likely to have issues other than the actual cable.
Some might have USB-powered coffee cup warmers or "Plugs " recharging that causes issues to source device rather than the actual cable.
Yes. Exactly.
Those non-standard or modified cables can have large variety of differences and possible issues. Data usage tests might even show the issues.
Well one thing is “color”. It’s well known that color makes differences.
Also the visible and touchable materials makes differences.
Even in subconscious levels a person might like something more than the other alternative, same with materials. Same with cables. So the preferred one is always better.
" recharging that causes issues to source device rather than the actual cable.