I’m mostly using my Aeon Noire for comparisions nowadays but still can’t tell DACs apart.
That’s why I rather tend to agree with people from the audio engineering and science side of audio and not with those subjective reviewers who claim to ‘hear’ a difference in power cables and stuff like that.
If I get a DAC one day that proves me wrong I will change my mind but I have not encountered such a DAC so far
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Yeah I won’t ever admit to hearing a difference in cables. That one I just can’t pick out and I buy them for the looks. I would also say most DACs under the $1k mark sound very similar. With that said it is very well documented/agreed upon that most people hear a difference going from a DS DAC to a bifrost or an ares 2. How do the audio science/engineers folks explain that?
Curious what amplifiers you use as well.
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Currently using a Topping A30 Pro. It was the only reasonably priced amp that has a lot of power out of single ended. Some of my headphones can’t be used balanced so that was important to me.
Sound quality wise it’s audibly transparent and has enough power for my planars
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Most audio engineers will tell you that ‘you didn’t test it properly’.
That’s at least my impression from people in similar threads on audioholics or asr
Hundreds of not thousands of people are incorrect?
I understand testing correctly but with the amount of people that say they can hear a difference, I would say that in it’s self is enough data to render any blind testing irrelevant for the most part.
Keep in mind I’m referring to two specific DACs not all DACs.
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But the problem is that nobody is willing to invest time in those double blind tests. People just buy a new DACs or amp and expect it to sound different that they actually hear a difference.
There might be DACs that actually sound different, I possibly can’t know this.
I plan to visit the next audio show and test some DACs and amps with my Aeon Noires. I hope I’ll finally hear some DACs that will sound different
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So if you don’t hear it for yourself then it’s can’t possibly be true unless the audio science folks say so?
I’ll leave it at data is data, either from a large cross section of people or a double blind test. There has to be a point where a humans ears/experience can count for something besides a double blind test being an absolute truth.
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As long as they measure with flat fr and no distortion yes (which everything over $100 does), zero reason why they shouldn’t
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So a man of science such as yourself has come to the conclusion that all DACS sound the same because you tested a handful of entry level DACs?
Talk about bias and placebo. 
Maybe as you grow in the hobby you’ll come back to this thread and laugh at what you used to think. Or better yet, don’t spend any more money because ignorance is bliss and to be honest, the sub $200 dollar DACs of today are good enough for many people and more than enough for most. They are however targeted at a specific price point, not for a specific sonic target other than SINAD cause for some reason that’s the only thing many look for as perceive quality. Such folly.
I see you replaced the power supply on your Sanskrit with a LPS, why did you do that and did you hear a difference when you did that? Moving through various levels of DACs you’re going to hear potentially as much difference as replacing a noisy switched ps with a decent LPS. That’s the reason I’m asking this question.
Your conclusion is wrong (it’s also incomplete and woefully “unsienctific” given the very limited extent of your test chain). I’m not saying you’re wrong because if you don’t hear a difference, you don’t hear a difference and that is a truth to you.
I answered your original post not for you but for others starting out in the hobby that they’d read your very limited comments with your very limited experience and give it any meaningful weight or consideration as they have own journey in the hobby. DACs matter, amps matter, cables matter, power supply matters, source matters, media matters. The further you go down the rabbit hole the more some of these things have an impact. Now whether that impact have value is a very personal decision that people will made based on their budget, desires or level of satisfaction. But don’t make the comments you’ve been making that are ignorant and empty of meaningful first hand reference by your own admission.
I have nothing more to say. 
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I appreciate your dilemma and position. I used to be a more measurement-focused audiophile who leaned on claims of “bias” and “placebo” to explain away those who heard differences. As I moved through my grad school training to become an actual scientist, I realized that I didn’t know nearly enough about the science to be as sure as I was. A dead giveaway was using the term “placebo” in an audio context. In fact, the term “placebo” has no documented or peer-reviewed uses outside of a clinical-medical setting. None. That was a hard realization because it meant I was using a thing I loved - science - without enough knowledge and in ways it was never supposed to be used. I also realized that one of the most critical data streams in the gathering and production of scientific knowledge is human observation. Even in the 21st century what we can see, hear, smell, touch, and taste (be REALLY careful how you use each of those lol) is foundational to scientific inquiry. And that’s doubly true when one of the operative realities is human perception. Now I’m at the point where I realize it’s less productive to debate if there are audible differences in some (honestly most) DACs, amps, cables, etc. and more productive to focus on what the differences are and what’s causing them.
I would also argue there have been numerous people who have done tests as blind as they can make them with the resources they have available (I’m one of them, multiple times) and heard differences. But, every time they speak they get shouted down, the goal posts get moved, etc.
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Only did that to use those ridiculous thick power cables on the LPS. But now I’m just running my DAC with PC power
Maybe just do the actual blind test on camera instead of writing paragraphs of why it should make a difference…
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It’s not only my experience. Look at forums like audioholics or ASR. There are people with a lot more experience than most of us and they still come to the same conclusion.
It’s okay to have different takes on choosing audio gear.
I didn’t force anyone to not buy expensive DACs. I just wanted to encourage people to actually do a blind test…
Human’s ears lead us to the inquiry as to try to understand what product delivers a more suitable for us (better) audio experience and by extension why is that and how can we replicate that. Ears themselves are not however an absolute yardstick as not only do people’s audio tastes differ but also their hearing ability due to circumstance, ear construction and age.
If there are so many personal variables before we even begin comparing products should we not want to make both the process and the conduction of product measurements as transparent, consistent and repeatable as possible so as to remove further variables surrounding the audio performance we are subjectively perceiving?
ASR is simply creating these standards of repeatable experiments so that consumers can objectively compare technical details and build qualities of audio hardware as is done in almost every other technology or performance based consumer product industry (Tv, Vehicles, etc). Sometimes that serves to uncover shady manufacturers who list misleading, or plain false assertions or measurements about their products. Other times it is in the scientific pursuit of technical engineering excellence.
Both come from a love of audio and a want to level the playing field for the consumer. Whilst Amir and the forum at ASR can seem intimidating, lacking patience, sarcastic and absolute in their assertions - they provide an invaluable wealth of knowledge and do a great service to the audio community.
If an individual does not want to understand the technical side of audio products then they can always choose not to read ASR reviews and particularly the follow on commentary. But that does not invalidate what they are doing. Just as what they are doing does not invalidate an individual’s opinion. You can wholeheartedly enjoy audio without having the technically best performing product or even caring about the technical side. You just can’t claim it is the best for everyone.
You can only tell me your opinion on a product if you are experienced with that type of product and either way that information is valid only to you. So why should I care. I need to know so much about both your and my audio preferences, have experience in audio and understanding it’s descriptors, have trust in your taste and hearing abilities, knowledge of your bias and your economic interests in the product, etc. Can you imagine if every life interaction we had was like this?
ASR allows everyman to begin an audio journey from a level playing field. Something that will open up this hobby and has already succeeded in driving up technical performance and down prices.
The objective is not to call consumers fools because their experience does not line up with the technical measurements. Measurements only tell you the peak technical performance - ASR is always quick to note that it does not account for product features or specific individual audio tastes it simply documents how something technically performs not how it sounds or what it’s use case is to an individual.
There are a whole host of possible reasons outside of the measurements of the product in question, as to why our experiences around an audio experience do not align: room acoustics, purchase/expectation bias, burn in bias, other hardware limitations, hearing ability, listening position, etc the list goes on…
This is exactly why not all data is equivalent and this is why ASR is fixated on measurements and when not available double blind random controlled testing because they seek like in all science to remove variables so that the question posed can be answered to the fullest extent possible and that is the currently leading scientifically accepted method to do so. If someone only can judge through their ears as measurements cannot be everything - as you suggested - then surely it is logical to erase all other variables so that our ears are focused on the job at hand of comparing DACs without distraction. People’s personal and anecdotal evidence that one DAC sounds better is useful in helping us pose this question and if there is a statistical significant amount of people claiming this then it is of course important to begin testing and looking for answers but ears alone can never answer the question definitively.
Perhaps attacking the objective and transparently measured numbers is not the easiest course of action to explain these perceived differences when there are so many other potential factors.
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I definitely understand what they are after, but when people use absolutes like “all DACs sound the same” because of what is said on a couple specific forms, well that invalidates any double blind testing done because it isn’t true to everyone. Like you said everyone hears differently and everyone has their own bias’s, even the folks on ASR.
Ultimately even if it’s a baseline for new folks to the hobby, it’s a pretty crappy baseline if it’s stated as an absolute.
But I think there is some confusion here.
If your claim is that if someone can score perfectly in a double blind randomly controlled test then surely measurements are not absolute is exactly in line with what I was highlighting in my previous post. The measurements only tell you the performance of the hardware until the sound leaves that hardware - after that there are numerous uncontrolled factors that limit our ability to compare to each other. To jump from a single case of someone correctly scoring 100% in a DBRCT to that being direct evidence of measurements being wrong is a just that - a large jump with many unchecked variables. Not only is there the possibility of luck in a perfectly conducted test providing these results (which statistically will happen in some occurrences) but how do you know the change in sound is the result of the DAC and not in another variable? And to take this further, even if the sound is audibly worse to me that does not mean that this is the same for everyone… and so full circle that is exactly why we need DBRCTs to limit the potential variables so we can make comparisons that have meaning.
What ASR are suggesting is not that all DACs sound the same - it’s that a technically well implemented DAC should perform to a certain (and they are defining it) level. A follow on from this is that at the current TOTL SINAD levels we are well past the realms of audibility. This is technical performance as a differentiating factor not audio quality specific to an individual. They are measuring performance up to the point that sound leaves the hardware - unfortunately they are not measuring to the point that not only has it entered our ears but it is interpreted and relayed by our brain.
These semi-disclaimers are brought up in the comments of nearly every review. And ASR would do a good job in maybe fleshing some of them out for the newcomers and link in review descriptions so that as you say blanket statements with little understanding backing them up are not blindly repeated.
For what it is worth - a DAC only deals in bits - it does not deal in sound. If something is faithfully reproduced it is just that - and handled by the DAC chip. There is no sound signature imparted in this process. The analogue output however can colour the sound but that is also noted in the tests conducted by ASR (a problem is definitely the perceived importance of the SINAD ranking list - but they have run multiple seminars to try and explain how to read the whole spectrum of tests and results with other members arguing for greater numbers and variations in the technical testing). It is through these tests that we understand real life issues such as linearity and noise or technical problems like the ESS hump or revelations like how some harmonic distortion can be pleasurable even if SINAD degrading. But again ASR is not looking to tell you how something sounds to the individual / only how it performs.
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I’ll just point out that if you’re using a pair of Aeon 2 Noire, which have impact and leading edge problems that result in pretty dead dynamics, plugged into an A30pro that will almost certainly not provide enough sustained current to power the Noires (going by it not powering the slightly less current hungry Edition XS at 92db sensitivity and 18ohm very well (from experience) vs the Noire at 92db sensitivity and 13ohm pulling about 18% more current) resulting in kinda loose bass, muddy imaging, and poor dynamics on top of their already fairly mediocre dynamics, all being fed by a Sanskrit (which is honestly one of the least detailed DACs I’ve heard and is known for being bright for various reasons (like poor jitter control for one) could easily be a reason you might not be having a great audio experience and not moving past it is going to just brick wall your listening ABILITY (because it’s a honed skill on top of being a phsysical limitation). Make a real move up to a real chain and listen for a while and go back and see how much you’re missing before proclaiming anything more expensive than your own current setup to be pure snake oil and placebo just because ASR said it’s “audibly transparent”.
Going through all the chi-fi DACs up through $1000 I definitely found most of them to sound more similar than different, though almost none sounded identical and to sit there and proclaim that there’s zero audible difference for anyone, crosses the line from ignorant to stupid. If YOU can’t hear the differences due to a limitation of your own hearing or headphone limitations, that’s one thing, but to project that limitation on others is downright insane and comes off as pretty narcissistic of you to assume that you get to determine others capabilities.
There is merit to measurements, but instantly assuming a SINAD chart topper is also going to be the most detailed DAC is absolutely not accurate. Time domain accuracy (which I personally think of kinda like control for an amp, almost like being the ability to accurately output what it takes in) makes a huge amount of all the SINAD and distortion numbers nearly irrelevant when they’re over a certain point and I feel like people always ignore time domain. Human ears and brains are orders of magnitude more sensitive to time inconsistencies than most people think and picking up on those differences is pretty damn easy if your chain is capable enough but it’s also worth pointing out the obvious point that your whole chain is only as strong as its weakest point, which is why stupid shit like cables actually start to matter past a certain point. I don’t have a crazy high end chain by any means, but I’m definitely at a point where I can say with absolute certainty if you replaced my DAC with a Sanskrit and didn’t tell me, I’d come home from work, sit down to listen, and within 5 seconds be thoroughly pissed off and instantaneously assume I’m about to need to file a warranty claim on a piece of gear somewhere in the chain.
And on the topic of someone talking about upgrading from a D90 vs a Holo DAC (I’ll go with a May KTE for the comparison), the May has a whopping 140db of dynamic range vs the D90 at 120db. That is 100 times as much dynamic range. 100. One hundred times as much dynamic range. Why doesn’t dynamic range matter, but chasing 1db of SINAD does? And why not clock timing accuracy and jitter rejection? Surely we can all hear the difference between something 80db and 100db so why is that very obviously important metric just totally ignored by all of the ASR crowd? My guess is because they like to think R2R is some dirty audiophile thing like tubes that should be hated at all costs to protect their ego, when in all reality, the May KTE is an all around better measuring DAC than the D90 with the exception of a single decibel of SINAD.
Idk, the whole argument is stupid, if you can’t hear it, you can’t, but don’t tell others they can’t either and maybe consider not upgrading ever again since it’ll be totally wasted on you anyways. And if you can hear the difference, cool, enjoy your AUDIBLE upgrades and chase the audio dragon. Also, worth noting I do love the Noires, and I honestly might rebuy them again some day, they were one of my favorite closed backs I’ve ever owned, but they are FAR from anything that could be considered an audio stethoscope.
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No confusion on my part.
Interesting post by @Pokrog I agree with most of it. The measurement guys - I get it. It’s fine to put a piece through its paces and see what it’s got. It is a great point of reference. I had the same questions. A 1,000 dollar DAC measures exactly the same as say, a 10,000 dollar DAC. So why would they sound different?
The answer is implementation/execution and design. Higher quality components offer better circuit characteristics and performance. Superior design speaks for itself. That said, this jump in performance comes at a significant cost. A cost that many can’t or won’t take on. That is one of the sad realities of this hobby. We do what we can!
In my own case, I had a hard time telling the difference between the M200 (AKM chip) and the SU-8 (ESS chip). Both were/are very good, and in the end, I think I preferred the SU-8 by a very slim margin. But to blind test, I think I could pick out what is what MOST of the time. Then I got the Bifrost 2. Within 2 hours of listening to this wonderful thing, there was no turning back. The difference in overall fidelity was significant. I believe I could pick out the Frost every time. So, I can only imagine what is possible when the next jump is made. And that is probably all I will be able to do, imagine! Enter that sad reality part I spoke of earlier. But I definitely think there is a next level.
In summary, DACs matter. I mean, all the pieces matter, man, but for the sake of this discussion I’m keeping it to DACs. The DAC is the source. They definitely matter. And there is a difference. I’d like to think I have one more upgrade in me before father time makes the whole thing moot!
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Hearing is believing.
The funny thing is that most of the debates and scientific stuff could be put to an end if someone BIG with a lot of $ was willing to invest in research and scientific studies. Let’s say NASA or someone of that scale was willing to invest multiple millions of dollars in order to get accurate data about these things, a lot of stuff could be explained.
But the reality is, the audiophile industry is mostly for personal pleasures. If this listening experience and changes could be crucial in a certain application (e.g. military, other field of that significance), I’m sure there would be no problem in investing.
I am hopeful to believe that things are a little bit more known for studio applications and the music industry since there they need actual accuracy and personal liking is not of much significance there.
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