I agree on the amp part. They really need some power. Dan Clark recommends 500mW at 16ohms. On some tracks I have to push the A30 to 3 o clock so I thought of getting an LA90, Purifi or save up for an AHB2
To make this clear:
I‘m not saying that you or anyone doesn’t hear a difference.
As I said I do hear differences too but as soon as I test DACs blindly, most differences just disappear.
Two well engineered DACs should sound nearly identical and most entry level DACs already achieved the lowest distortion in frequency domain and the lowest jitter. There might be differences between two DACs with different topology but not night and day differences.
I don’t have anymore to say about this; @Kenyon said anything about that topic that I wanted to say too
1 Like
Why ever start (or continue) the argument (for want of a better word) if you’re not prepared to actually listen to other people’s thoughts and experiences? Immediately discounting someone’s experience just because they didn’t blindly test something leads nowhere and means that there is never going to be an end to this constant argument that always ends up coming back every few months, whether it’s about DACs, Cables, Amps etc.
2 Likes
Can you provide a link to the measurements for the Holo May KTE - I have seen Wolf’s measurements of the Holo May but not the KTE edition. It would be great to have a comparable set of measurements.
Unfortunately, the SBFA review uses a Picoscope for measurements - I presume you are aware of the issues with that measurement device. They unfortunately did not account for the higher output voltage on the balanced connection of the Holo May, the frequency range and sample rates also differ. There is a difference between a device being capable of higher DR and what is actually implemented as you can see that ESS chips have been capable of DR >140 for the last 6 years (ESS Technology Introduces the SABRE PRO Series of DACs Setting a New Performance Bar With Unprecedented 140 dB Dynamic Range)
and both Topping and Universal Audio have stated that they can currently exceed the limitations of their AP at 146 DR. ASR and Wolf provide standardized procedures, equipment and tests to allow us to directly compare.
I would agree that, as you stated, DR does matter and that is why it is always measured in every technical review. It alone however does not tell you much and SINAD serves as a representation of DR when THD+N is accounted for so surely if you think DR is important then SINAD must be just as important…? As you can see from Wolf’s measurements there is considerable difference in the THD+N between the D90 and a Holo May - again a feature of R2R DACs and a lack of feedback looping. This is (simplistically) why the SINAD is lower on the Holo May.
Agreed - jitter is important but again this is provided in measurements in every technical review. Nothing is being hidden.
Can you please provide a link to the clock accuracy measurements or any timing based measurements as I cannot see any on the SBFA measurements that you have quoted from. Are you running DSP or multi Dacs in your system? All can cause real issues with timing. Outside of routing the time latency issues are usually reserved for speakers due to the driver contraction and room reflection timings. This topic has been covered by Toole, ASR and even stereophile has weighed in.
I think it is not controversial to say that the Holo May is the best R2R DAC implementation. It is testiment to the fact that R2R by definition is not poor performing but is heavily reliant on their implementation. The fact that the Holo May also produces good enough measurements to leave it in the top tier of technically performing DACs shows this. Please read the comments within the ASR/Wolf Holo May reviews and you will see the appreciation of the hardware. Most talk about how they want the device themselves as it is a near technical perfection coupled with circuitry nerd appeal. Unsure why you would think there is a “measurement guy” bias against R2R - well there is against the ones that measure poorly, cost excessively and make claims that are not backed up.
Will be interesting to see the future developments with the Holo May especially as the manufacturer has now purchased an AP and is using measurement based practises to work on the improvements - this can be seen in the jitter / FFT improvements in the Spring 3.
2 Likes
My viewpoint is why evaluate gear in the short-term when you listen to music for the long-term. To me, that’s just common sense. It’s essential to look at the bigger picture imo.
3 Likes
Surely that arguement runs both ways - why feel that you need to push personal experience on everyone else or be adament that the differences which only that individual has perceived are clear to see and objectively there, when you start from the idea that the hobby is subjective?
Personally I find R2R does sound slightly different but I wouldn’t say that is gospel for everyone or that I would pass a DBRCT. I certainly wouldn’t be insulting people over it. With that amount of discrete electronics I would expect some differences and moreover measurements to demonstrate this (which there are even if these appear beyond the realms of the audible). What I cannot say, even when using TOTL equipment in a treated room, is that one is better than the other. I can fall back on measurements to provide clues to these differences, and I can understand my own preferences and how external factors may also be at play, but the major issue is that on a level playing field R2R is not a viable proposition for most people due to its high costs. So dollar to performance it cannot usually be recommended in reviews aimed at everyman. It is a bespoke item akin to high end watchmaking except without the mass appealed bragging rights.
So far most of the vitriol has been aimed at @juliangst unilaterally which isn’t fair just for an assertion that we all understand is never going to be universally agreed with in a mainly subjective forum.
4 Likes
For All -
There are many topics that gather passionate views from all angles and therefore it is probable that there will be some views you are not in alignment with. This is OK, and promotes healthy debate, but when debating the point becomes targeted to a group or single individual, it is Not OK.
Remember to be respectful towards each other, even if that individuals position on a subject differs from your own.
5 Likes
So, a Ferrari F38 Spider is indistinguishably from a VW Beetle? Data looks good, they both have doors, seats and drive on roads.
Frequency response tells you one thing: No matter the frequency, the amplitude is the same.
That is all it answers!
Trouble is, reality is VERY disappointing. Below is a very flat FR, less than 0.5dB deviation over the 20Hz to 20kHz range.
Phase however, is horrible. And phase is interesting since humans (without training) are not good at picking apart frequencies. Time offsets however, we are amazing at from birth (that is how our positional awareness works). And that phase rollercoaster up there, will make guitars, Organs and other instruments with a lot of harmonics sound like absolute ass!
Mind you, that measurement is extremely flawed. For once, the amplifier was getting a single sine wave over the entire range (AWG has 25MHz bandwidth, almost no harmonics in the input signal). The amplifier was also under no load since the probe has 1M Ohm input impedance. So, it is not representative of any real world use case.
THD, S/R (SnR), output power, etc. all have their place to verify gear works as advertised.
Side note
All the measurebators (excuse the language) keep harping on and on and on about SINDAD and THD+N.
Do any those people actually know what those two numbers mean? And I do not want the first paragraph of Wikipedia pasted in my face AGAIN!
I ask this very aggressively because SND/ND is a number that is almost at the pass/fail mark of usefulness to anyone except developers at TI, AKM, Cirrus, etc.
THD+N is another “everything and the kitchen sink”-number. As such, it is only useful when the noise floor is measured too.
Noise floor wise: The question is >60dB S/N ?, the answer then is either pass or fail. Why not higher = better? Because your listening room is at what? 45dB(a) on a good day? 55dB(a) when traffic gets busy? Well, enjoy listening to your music at the volume of a chainsaw then to pick out the noise!
Power supply tests such as ripple rejection and hold-up time would be interesting and have real-world applications for every user. However, those tests are difficult to set up. Ask any test engineer about proper test setups, it is way harder than “have cable on desk”.
Edit: The below rant is directed at noone in this thread, yet!
RANT
WHY the FUCK do people who can not get Ohms law correct for a DC circuit even opine on AC subjects? You do not start driving a car on the first day you tied your shoes without help either, do you?
Time and Frequency domain are VERY important to get right. Makes the difference between looking like a toddler without parents supervision and a dedicated hobbyist. AND WHEN YOU CAN NOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN A CLOCK AND THE COLOR GREEN, DO NOT FREAKING LECTURE ME ON “But numbers/science/the star alignment say [your claim here]”
Your Logic Fallacy Is .com is NOT a fucking checklist! Stop appealing to authority all the time! Science is no democracy! You either have it right and can back it up or you shut up!
And when all of you self proclaimed experts managed to understand your first Spec sheet without googling every word you do not understand (preferably from a Semi-conductor manufacturer), you will see that single numbers are the MOST FUCKING POINTLESS THING EVER when it comes to events in a wide bandwidth system!
Rant over
Edit: After you had your internship with a test engineer or electrical engineer working in R&D, you can maybe find a Biologist willing to explain to you how amazingly complex and sensitive humans are.
6 Likes
Pass the Blind test or anything you said is worthless 
To say flatly that all DACs sound the same because digital is ones and zeros is pretty akin to saying all headphones/speakers sound the same because analog signals vibrating an electro magnet will always produce the same sonic waves. It reminds me of when people online would say framerate doesn’t matter past some low number since that’s what our eyes see lol.
It’s just a huge baseless oversimplification that misunderstands what digital audio even is and the pretty complex process of converting it to analog electrical signals. Insisting someone pass a blind A/B test over an internet forum to invalidate their points is not very nice.
Audio is a hobby that many people enjoy for the tiny nuances and special details gear can bring to their favorite music (timbre, soundstage, dynamics, transients all can’t be measured, but are foundational to why we love sounds). DACs are a cool part of that for many. It’s totally okay to enjoy other components and be at a place where expensive DACs don’t make sense or just not hear a difference personally, but there’s no reason to string together a faux scientific argument to tell someone else why their listening experience is wrong or the gear they love actually doesn’t sound good.
The hifi hobby I think is actually in for a lot of cool stuff with DACs in the coming months and years. We’re seeing a lot of the tech that was limited to really expensive DACs start to trickle down and make reviewers and hobbyists smile. MrAyrit showed off a really cool R2R dongle DAC on his YouTube channel recently that is supposed to be really special sounding for only 250! Maybe if your skeptical that’s a good place to start and do some A/Bing yourself to see if traditional resistor ladders do have a different flavor to delta/sigma chips. Maybe for your gear or ears there won’t be and that’s okay, but we’re all different people with different setups, so for some they may be excited at the nuanced changes. What remains either way is all the science behind the complicated math and different electrical implementations that can be used to reproduce analog from digital through different processes.
This podcast by Darko Audio and Golden Sound does a great job of getting into all the misconceptions in the community about what measurements are and what they say about a device: Podcast: The REAL value of measurements | Darko.Audio
It’s a great way to brush up on how to use them properly. Just one point for example is THD doesn’t measure sound quality, it measures an aggregate of many kinds of distortion including some audio engineers know are desirable or frankly are a part of music. THD isn’t a good way to compare gear when you’re thinking about sound quality, a better number can mean the device will sound worse. It’s just not as simple as number better = good. It’s a benchmark for solid electrical work and nothing more. It’s marketing mumbo jumbo to use that wonky aggregate measurement as anything more and yet it’s a tentpole of the all DACs are sonically the same argument. All love, hope everyones enjoying their music, DACs and all! 
3 Likes
Look, if you can’t tell in a blind test it just invalidates your argument, if whatever you think you’re hearing goes away when you’re not seeing it, it means you’re not hearing it. Sorry if you think it’s not nice from me to say it I guess?
And bringing up darko the guy that thinks putting rocks over his dacs makes them sound different isn’t helping your case either.
If you wanna hear real differences and get different flavors from your headphones just get into pad swapping or EQ, idk why you’re looking for the difference in a thousandth of a db from a dac with objectively the same specs as another, when you can just go and add a 10db bass shelf with eq or completely change sound and comfort with new pads.
Forgot the condescending emojis
Peace and love m8 
2 Likes
Firstly and most importantly, I’d like to sincerely apologize of coming off condescending. I know I tend to be a tad verbose, but I hope you can trust me when I say I don’t ever intend to look down on another. I just know this is a pretty heated debate for some, so wanted to lighten the mood with a good ole laughing emoji.
Secondly, I’d whole heartedly agree that pad swapping or EQ are pound for pound way better dollar value ways to get different sounds out of your gear. I was for a long time very skeptical of the differences pads could make till I tried some and was blown away by the differences! I’d also never steer a friend getting into hifi toward fancy DACs, they’re not a great value for money and IMHO you can only hear the small differences once your system is really resolving. I do think though, and maybe this is where we disagree, that for some hobbyists when they have headphones with pads they adore and an amp that really kicks ass, the DAC is the last frontier where they can experiment and try and dial in their perfect system. I know that’s the case for me, I really enjoy the hobby from a system perspective and am always working toward the tiniest gains at every point in the chain. I’m just advocating that that’s an okay way to enjoy the hobby, if you’re view is DACs don’t matter enough that’s also valid. In my mind the views don’t really contradict, it’s just a matter of relative value. I only take issue with the insistence that someone else can’t tell a difference on some quasi-scientific argument about the limits of human hearing, I find I can blind A/B my two DACs with relative ease since one has a much much wider soundstage, an aspect of sound that’s really important to me.
Lastly though, the reason replying to a long post explaining the scientific argument behind someones views with “Pass the Blind test or anything you said is worthless ” isn’t very nice, is obviously the commenter feels they can and maybe has passed a blind A/B test. We all understand that that can’t be proven over a text forum, so it’s a way to say someones wrong for disagreeing without any effort to engage with what they’re saying in friendly thoughtful debate. You also called what they wrote “worthless” which isn’t so kind to your fellow audio fanatic. It’s the same as if I replied “lol bad ears” to a reply explaining why DACs don’t matter. To be crystal clear, that would be awful behavior and equally mean spirited. I would hope myself and other’s would point out that it’s not the kindest way to engage in friendly debate.
In the same vein, making fun of the podcast because Darko’s budget solution to avoid paying for iso-acoustic feet is a heavy puck on the device is ad hominem, attacking the person rather than their argument. (Also I’m pretty sure the puck is a long running joke poking fun at audiophile nervosa) Golden Sound is the person interviewed and he makes a bunch of great points about measurement besides THD that he finds make a sonic difference for DACs and a bunch about how THD is a pretty bad way to judge performance. He’s one of the more well respected people that independently posts gear measurements, so I think it’s a great interview if people popping into the thread want to learn more about the measurements that are central to this debate, regardless of which side they land on, linked here .
Scrolling through this thread I did pick up that there’s been some ire on both sides and I want to again be clear that even if I don’t agree that DACs are scientifically and objectively identical for all hifi purposes, nobody should be shamed for doing a blind A/B and finding it’s not a big enough difference for them/their system or that they can’t pick them apart. It’s worth pointing out that blind A/Bing has a skill component and isn’t a super scientific way to prove something. I certainly can’t blind A/B cheeses or punk guitarists or a whole host of things, but I wouldn’t use that to argue all guitarists are really one guy (All I can blind A/B with confidence in this world is my audio gear since I use it day in and day out). It is a solid way to audit for yourself if your gear is hitting the price to performance ratio you desire, but maybe not a good way to validate or invalidate subjective things you enjoy while listening. I find detailed note taking over long listening sessions is more helpful for me, you can do this blind with some help, but it’s admittedly a finicky proposition.
My apologies for the essay and without an ounce of sarcasm I hope you enjoyed my reply @ragecandy! It’s all just audio after all and debating is a good chunk of the fun. I just think we should all be careful when we’re in the more spirited debates to not forget to be polite and caring in our discourse.
5 Likes
I mean claiming ad hominem when you’re defending a comment basically calling me an idiot with a lot of f bombs in it is kinda funny in itself.
But yeah you can pretend to be in the humane high ground all you like if you feel that makes your overpriced dac sound better, I really don’t care enough to keep arguing, enjoy your audiophile weights and your cables mate…
1 Like
You are exactly the problem why talking to the church of Amir-“listen at 100dB is normal”-SR is a waste of time.
Anyway, A/B/X/Y/Z testing is all fun and games. The accidental way I did that in the past was by confusing what cable coming from onboard/soundcard/DAC was which. Telling some onboard soundchip apart from a low-end soundcard (ESI Maya 44eX) and sub 300€ tier DAC is pretty easy. Mainly lack of dynamics and overly sharp treble.
Does that mean when I do not see 130dB SND/ND and DAC only does 100, it is the same DAC and I do not need to stuff more cash down Chinesium audio brands that, despite making “the perfectly transparant DAC and Amp” years ago, keep coming up with new “better” models?
What do you mean hear? I only listen to 1kHz Sine waves by staring at my AudioPrecision Analyzer.
2 Likes
Wow you said nothing relevant there, and even put words in my mouth!, I wasn’t talking about your low end soundcard I was talking about good measuring dacs vs good measuring dacs and you even went ad hominem again against amir and me lmao, you can pretend to be in the high ground again tho.
We’ve had this talk before, you hate Topping, China and Amir, and I can’t do anything about it, enjoy your audiophile rocks, I’m actually out this time 
@admins I think this needs to be shut down or heavily pared as it’s gotten quite contentious.
4 Likes
Hello again! I certainly agree that no one should be swearing at anyone else over DACs and admittedly joined this conversation late without reading much above. Again I apologize if I’m coming off dismissive, just trying to advocate we keep what is in my mind a cool debate civil. I’ve enjoyed a bunch of your posts across the forum and certainly think you’re a smart fellow audiophile.
@MazeFrame I think I’m mostly in your camp when it comes to the debate at hand, but I definitely don’t think its fair to accuse someone of being in a church over DAC views. If we want to continue a fun discussion and have the thread serve as useful for other readers we have to be polite and caring in our discourse! Lets avoid ad hominem on all sides. I’d sooner give up my stance on DACs than attack another forum denizens character.
To achieve some common ground, I actually like ASR! I like Amir and think the work he does independently verifying measurements is important and valuable to the community. He definitely helps catch some serious snake oil and keeps manufacturers honest, especially on really expensive gear. Now, do I always agree with everything he says, no, but I rarely agree with anyone on everything. I often think some of the subjective claims he makes based on his measurements extrapolate a tad too far beyond what the measurements actually say and I wish he were a little more transparent about his own biases rather than insisting he’s a totally unbiased source/authority, but generally I appreciate his measurements and healthy skepticism. He does roast products I like sometimes, but I always appreciate the measurements even if I’m not in agreement with the conclusion or as concerned with what’s bugging him on the graphs. He recommends some pretty high end DACs here and there and it always makes me laugh when he ends a review with an apology that he didn’t listen to it because he was busy, but that he’s sure it sounds good. The balls on that man! Makes sense he was tech exec back in the day.
On that note, I actually do like topping DACs quite a bit. I’m planning to get an entry level one to use as an option for comparison when I eventually get around to making video reviews of equipment and music. This thread actually gave me an idea for a funny segment. I think it’d be fun to try and blind A/B DACs I end up reviewing against a 100 ish dollar topping DAC as like the final test. It’d be pretty stressful and not super scientific, but I think a pretty fun segment nonetheless. Topping makes some great stuff that measure well at a really great price point. I just think its worth remembering that their emphasis on the importance of THD is a marketing tactic in just the same way other companies use flowery science terms to promise more money is going to buy you better sound. They sell a lot of DACs by marketing their technology as scientifically perfect for a budget price, kind of the other side of the marketing coin so to speak. The DACs are definitely damn good for the price, but as consumers I don’t think its best to put too much stock in marketing like that. They definitely look at way more than THD and SINAD when they design the DACs, like all good manufacturers, and do plenty of subjective listening before they release them.
And lastly if you’re right and the rocks were serious that is pretty funny! I’m certainly not putting any rocks on my devices. Nor am I a big cables matter guy, but I have seen some newer studies that have begun to give me pause. LOL maybe I am a loon. I hope their are no hard feelings friend! Oh and of course I don’t hate China. Beautiful country with great people and culture. They make some great audio gear too, I’m considering those fancy red speakers made by musician!
1 Like
Preach Brotha! Preach!
I’m curious which of those darn manufacturers are so dishonest. One thing I hate are dishonest manufacturers who offer nothing but rich and vibrant sound, I don’t care about sound, I just want to look at a number on a chart buy that. No actual listening with ears required, I want a tool to analyze everything for me.
Totally love when musicians are very meticulous in their calculations and achieve perfect harmony by pitch matching and following a formula to create the best POP hit, you just need 4 chords amirite? Totally understand how playing with soul feeling is so overrated. I just listen top Billboard 10 music. Why even consider the rest when they are not even on the charts.
2 Likes
Thanks friend! Your replies gave me a good laugh. 
I totally agree, the boogeyman of the audio brand out to scam and sell a faulty product is pretty overstated. It’s a lot of money and effort to source parts and pay a team to design and then manufacture at scale all as a guise to hoodwink unaware buyers.
That said, since there aren’t agreed upon standards for the released measurements of gear required by law it’s a net positive that people investigate and validate the basic engineering. Do we take the results a tad to far as a community? Yeah probably, but I’ve seen my fair share of pretty bunk measurements for an AV receiver or piece of gear in the multiple of thousand dollars. Good to be demanding as consumers in my book and if the corporate fat cats get tired of us misreading our analyzers they should agree on a measurement standard and all release according to it WAVES 1021 TECHNICAL ENGINEER UNION FLAG EMPHATICALLY
I can’t hide my love for a bespoke piece of high-falooting audio gear made with the emotional listening experience put first. My degree is also in applied mathematics so I did a lot of work back in my college days around Fourier series and so my eyes just light up when manufacturers like Schiit or Chord talk about the discrete solutions to digital to analog conversion equations! I’m sure it reads as audiophile mumbo jumbo to most, but I swear those dudes ain’t bullshitting.
That said I stick by Topping even if I don’t connect with their marketing from a objective standpoint! Companies like their’s that hold what they make to a really high standard and find ways to meet those goals at scale for the budget and above audience do us all a service. Keeps the cost of the best performing tech moving down and pushes higher end stuff to strive for more. I’m always trying to get my friends into hifi and I’m definitely going to advise their first DAC be something SMSL or Topping. Huge audience that really cares about music in Asia and Topping is meeting that need valiantly.
Again thanks for the light hearted post! Things were getting pretty heated for a moment there 
Hifi’s all just for fun, we’re all winning getting to listen to music on the cool tech we like in my book.
@ragecandy expresses a few valid concerns, but the execution is poor… as is usually the case with these folks.
I would contribute to the discussion, but I see no point. It would be a waste of my time and energy.
Unfortunately, since we know so little about sound, especially in headphones, there are a lot of limitations. For this reason, not everything is black and white — i.e. measurements. For readers it’s impossible to assess how skilled a “trained listener” is. Of course, after reading the author’s work for some time, you can see whether your observations match theirs, and once you make up your mind, all that is is trust. Nothing more, it’s your trust in this author.
I am not here to say DACs do or do not significantly affect sound, but for example, how are you going to measure speed (often referred to as “transient speed”)? There likely is a method, and if there is one, it’s taboo.
I am all in for blind tests, but only if the said person want to do it. This is a personal hobby. If someone enjoys their equipment that they bought with their hard earned money, they have no obligation to do something against their will. People are literally in this hobby to enjoy their music and equipment, not all take it as seriously as you. You don’t go around asking people to demonstrate how good they are in bed with your partner, do you? And vice-versa, other people don’t go around asking you how good you are in bed and asking you to demonstrate that on their partner… There are limits as to when you are asking someone to prove their point.
I get it, you are trying to get a firm answer with a firm base (that is made by confirming the results from a CORRECTLY carried out blind test), but this is a personal hobby, as I’ve said before.
“Hey Johnny, I heard all it takes you to please your woman in bed is 5 minutes. I think you’re full of shit, so why don’t you come prove it on my Sophia”. It’s absurd, no?
7 Likes