HIFI system for a Mid-HIFI guy

Headphones Headphone Discussion / Help
1

Hey guys, I am totally new here. I was redirected from another forum because they said you were the experts. This is going to be a long one…

I don’t have a lot of experience with expensive headphones and HiFi equipment. The most HiFi part I currently own are the Brainwavz b400 IEM-s. Lately, I’ve been thinking of creating a high-end home listening experience. I’m from Croatia and most high-end music equipment shops don’t have a lot of models to try before buying. For that reason, I’ve been reading/watching many reviews of headphones/dacs/amps on the internet. The problem with that is that a lot of information is contradictory. Someone says something for a particular headphone that is the total opposite of someone else’s opinion.

Since I’m aware that Hi-Fi equipment is surrounded by a lot of bullshit and personal justifications for purchases, I would like to hear unbiased opinions as much as possible. Also, I would like to hear the opinions of people with a lot of experience in this field. (no hard feeling for others :blush:) The main problem that I have is the question: Where to draw the line? Just, for example, I’m fine with paying double the price for 25-33% increase in quality, everything below that is a harder pill to swallow. I would like to hear from you guys what is worth the extra money?

So what am I buying? I would like to buy a system consisting of a (current planned budget):

    1. Turntable
    1. Phono preamp
    1. Headphone amp
    1. Headphone dac
    1. Headphones
    1. Cables (optional if needed)
    1. Some sort of switch (if needed so I can go from turntable to dac easily)

I’d like to buy something that is of good quality. Why? Because I don’t want to spend 1000 euros on an entry-level system and then immediately start thinking of an upgrade. I want something that is versatile and flexible as far as sound goes. I don’t need the widest soundstage or the best timbre, or a headphone that excels in one or two genres of music. I would like to buy something that is a happy middle ground for everything. As far as sound characteristic goes, I want something that is again a middle ground between analytical and something that is fun and enjoyable to listen to. Something that has a good kick to it. The primary goal is music listening enjoyment, not dissecting the music to its minute details.

Just for reference, I compiled a few setups (using Schiit since they have everything from low to high end) in different price points to discuss differences and the “is it worth it” factor. I’m not sure where to draw the line… I tried the 1) option at my friend’s house and the experience though very precise and clean was somewhat underwhelming. It lacked the lower-end response and overall punch to the tracks. The soundstage also didn’t really feel very wide. I want the wow factor while listening so something definitely better than this. I would like to hear is it worth it to drop 3-4K euros on an expensive setup, or is for instance 2) option more than enough for a low-mid-hifi knowledgeable person…

  1. Sennheiser 660S with Schiit Magni/Modi stack = 745 euro

  2. HIFIMAN Ananda with Schiit Magnius/Modius stack = 1460 euro

  3. HIFIMAN Arya with Gungnir/Mjolnir 2 stack = 3859 euro

far as the turntable goes, I have no knowledge there at all besides the reviews I’ve read so a Rega Planar 3/Elys 2 + Schiit Mani for instance to me seems ok? **Correct me if there is something better.

Right now I have a Logitech G Pro X Wireless – a 200 euro gaming headset. I’m interested in how big of a difference would some of these headphones that are more expensive be? Judging by Rtings.com the difference is minuscule. Judging by audiophiles, the difference is night and day.

Thanks a lot for the help and sorry for the long post.

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Hey man. Just a thought, consider getting some used gear. Very often you are getting a better value.
If buying used locally is not an option, try Japanese Yahoo auctions. 3rd parties like Buyee could ship stuff to you.

Small example: Denon DP59L. Turntable that is really good and used to be expensive could be had for a fraction of a cost today.

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The thing about entry-level stuff is that it can be a good ground to start on to help you figure out what you really like. You can pick up a decent DAC/Amp like the ifi Zen dac, then grab a headphone you think suits your sound preference. From there you can upgrade.

For example, you said the 660s lacked bass and didn’t have enough soundstage width. Ok, then search for a bassy headphone with soundstage. Maybe one of the T50RPs mods, like Argons. But then you might not like that signature as much as you think because our ears do adjust to certain things in time.

And then on top of that, you might want both a bassy and neutral set of headphones around to switch things up a bit.

Personally, I don’t care much for crawling up the audiophile ladder. $200 is about the highest I’d go for gear. After that you can get some heavy diminished returns (that 10% added detail for twice the cost factor. But I think this is a good place to start for many.

Buying used can be a great way to try new things, and if you don’t like them, just sell it off. Not much harm there.

First thing to focus on is what kind of sound you want from the headphones. Bassy and wide soundstage? If you don’t know, it’s really worth exploring the cheaper region before deciding further.

Second, focus on an amp to power them. Often times you don’t need ludacris amount of power, and many cheaper amps nowadays are spectacular in terms of refinement. DACs as well. Like the Magni/Modi stack can be end-game for many, but then a Jotunheim with the AK DAC can be all that you need.

Vinyl can get pricy, tho. A Pro-ject turntable with a decent phono preamp can be costly.

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I don’t remember saying I like a bassy headphone but I know that 660S/800S even on frequency response charts have a tampered of low end.

From the reviews at least, Focal Clears sound like a good option. A good balance between fun and engaging sound and clear and precise presentation. Meze Empyreans also sound amazing from reviews, they are pretty expensive though, that’s why I’m asking for advice about real differences between price points. Arya-s also sound quite great again from reviews, but then again the build quality is quite bad for that price tier. Lcd-X need an EQ to be good and I’m not comfortable with that yet. Can someone say what is the real difference between a 660S for instance and something more expensive?

I heard good things about Topping A90/D90 combo, liquid platinum amp, and of course Schiit stuff.

As for the turntables, there are many other things such as cartridge, mats that sit on top of the disk , weights for records and what not…

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Well, personally Id never go balls out to get high(er) end gear. When I reflect on my audio journey for big system - and I now see that similar applies to headphones - the more money you spend, the bigger differences you get. The question is, which differences work well for the listener, and which not. With the money youre planning to spend, I personally would wait till summer and then try to go Austria or Germany -and try stuff out there. They have typically pretty good selection available in shops to try. Selectyour headphones and move down the chain from there.
I`ve also learned to be careful with buying from the US directly - MOST of the time it is OK once you swallow the pill of shipment / duties. But if you don’t like the stuff or it has technical problem - this is a nightmare to ship it back for replacement/service; from the side of duties/customs again.

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In Europe, Pro-ject can make a lot of sense, as it’s typically less expensive than here in the US. They not only make great turntables and phono stages, but their other gear is nice too. I really like my Phono Box DS2 USB. Their integrated Maia looks pretty cool for an all in one solution. You could also look at Denon for an integrated like the PMA600NE. Teac also makes some quality stuff that should be available in Europe. For headphones, the Clears should be a solid choice, though I haven’t heard them to confirm. They may not give you much more stage than the Senns, though, as they’re fairly intimate.

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Please can you help me a bit with different turntables from Pro-Ject then? Which line/model is a solid choice?

turn
turn1939×438 245 KB

Alright I’ll add Phono Box DS2 USB to my phono pick list :slight_smile:

I’ve read that Clears are like that 'cuse of the smaller 40mm drivers.

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Since you are in Europe I would consider using local to your continent products. Project, Kennerton, focal, sennheiser, just to name a few. Easier to deal with issues if they arise and hopefully a dealer within a few hundred Kilometers of where you live would allow for auditions of some pieces. Good luck

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I don’t have any direct experience with Pro-ject tables, as I run an old Realistic Lab400. My research has mostly been in the entry level, so the Debut Carbon hit the list, and can be incrementally upgraded with things like acrylic platter and better cartridges. Rega Planar is another line to consider if available in your area. You can also get a lot of value if you can find used vintage stuff like Technics, Dual, Thorens, etc.

@German_Power has been very helpful with turntable advice, and is in Europe, so perhaps can help here.

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Here in Europe, the Planar 3 is my top choice.
A solid platform with a lot of potential. There are many upgrades that can be made over time.
Add a 2M bronze or gold ring 1042 and you can be happy without any problems.
Phono preamps are the more difficult topic. You have to spend a disproportionate amount of money to have something solid in the long run.
Pro-Ject Phono Box DS2, Lehmann Audio Black Cube, Trigon Vanguard II

I’m not that much of a headphone expert. But as an European maybe consider a Soekris dac1321 / dac1221 and Lake People G111 combination.
An SPL Phonitor could offer you several inputs and with the analog crossfeed possibly the desired spatiality?
But others should help you with the headphone stuff… and listening to it yourself is still the best, sorry.
Planars are definitely a good choice for high quality bass, but not necessarily for a lot of bass. LCD-2 Classic, LCD-X are all good, i like both, in the end it’s a matter of taste.
For your budget, I would advise you to invest in a good front end. exaggerated: I would rather hear a 200 € Beyer headphone on a 2000 € front end than the other way around. Headphones are even more a matter of taste and you will likely just have to experiment a bit.

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I updated the list of things that are “decided” (bold items)

1. Turntable - Rega Planar 3 black
2. Cartridge - Goldring 1042
3. Phono preamp - Pro-Ject Phono Box DS2
4. Headphone amp - Liquid platinum, Topping A90, Lake People G111, Schiit stuff
5. Headphone dac - Topping D90, Soekris dac1321, Schiit stuff
6. Headphones - Focal Clear, HIFIMAN Arya, Meze Empyreans, LCD-X, LCD-2, HD800s
7. Cables (optional if needed)
8. Some sort of switch (if needed so I can go from turntable to dac easily)

Does someone know if there is a device/headphone amp that has two inputs - one for the DAC and one for the turntable? Also, something that could switch the output from the turntable to headphones / speakers?

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Some of the Schiit stuff has an optional phono module, like the Asgard and Jot2, but with the Pro-Ject, you’d just need a second RCA input or you could run the optical out of the Pro-ject into your DAC instead. That’s what I have mostly done. With things like the V200 or G111, or Jot 2, you could run XLR inputs from a balanced DAC and RCA from the Phono Box. Lots of options.

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I’m sorry that there is so little going on here at the moment …

2 and 3:
If you have a high-quality preamplifier or integrated, it often makes sense to look for a cartridge that goes well with the built-in phono preamp. That’s how I did it with my Luxman, because the integrated phono preamp actually has a lot of potential but cannot be adjusted.

Phono pre-stages such as the Trigon Vanguard II or the Pro-Ject, on the other hand, can be adapted to the desired cartridge. Tonal preferences can also be adjusted to a certain extent.

I would advise against digitizing the analog phone signal.
XLR cables are optional for short distances.

Great Idea! The G111 has a switch on the back
About the V200, sadly not: " When a cinch plug is inserted, it cuts possible signals applied to the balanced input automatically. I.e. the cinch input has priority."

7, cables … in my experience, cheap audiophile cables are usually a letdown. Either Amazon Basic or € 200 per RCA, everything in between is no good.

8th.
Unfortunately, Y-cables are not a good idea either.

How should the speakers be integrated and which components do you already have?
Personally, I’ve been using a HiFI preamplifier between the DAC / turntable / SACD … and the headphone amplifier for years (volume knob bypassed). This investment is of course more sensible if you also connect speakers to it. A good integrated with recording output can also be used for this.
Unfortunately, I don’t know of any high-quality, simple A / B switches …
Possibly look for something like a Mackie Big Knob Passive or other imput switcher in the recording area.
HiFi devices like: Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Analogue, Violectric PRE V630 … are unfortunately outrageously expensive.

I really don’t feel competent enough to make recommendations about the following…
The best option is probably a headphone amplifier with multiple inputs (SPL Phonitor, IFI AUDIO ZEN CAN SIGNATURE 6XX, EXPOSURE XM HP) or a DAC with bypass for an analog signal.
There are preamps with good DACs (Pre Box RS Digital) or phono preamps so you could look further in this direction.

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Sorry guys, been very busy over the week, lot of work. I made a sketch of what the “current” + planned setup would look like. Let me know your thought below.

Turntable and cartridge are solved, this week I’ve seen that Focal released the new Clear Magnesium headphones. From what I’ve heard about the original Clear, this seems like a small upgrade to the same sound formula so for now, this is my top pick.

The headphone amp needs to have 2 inputs for the DAC and phono stage. Also, the phono pre amp needs to have 2 outputs for speakers / headphones.

hifi setup plan
hifi setup plan4462×3486 1.7 MB

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You have a lot of duplicate paths in there.

For sake of simplicity, I also “redded” the digital part of the system out :wink:

This setup assumes your DAC will run single ended (= RCA) output. You need a 2-to-1 switch and 1 Y-splitter.

setup
setup4000×3125 1.21 MB

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Not really, the thing you removed was the phono preamp for the turntable.

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Then move the phono-pre before the switch I drew in?

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It burns my eyes.

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Why is that, component choice or?

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Just teasing about the aesthetic of the spaghetti graphic. It overwhelmed me.