I have a question. I have an Onkyo TX-NR636 receiver (along with Klipsch Ref speakers & 2 12" subs) as my current sound for my pc. I want to upgrade my headphones (Sony wh-1000xm4) to something like the Sennheiser 6xx/58x/560S or 38x. Do I still need a DAC before my Amp since my AV receiver has a built-in TI Burr-Brown 192 kHz/24-Bit DAC? I typically use HDMI as my sound source from my pc but can also use optical. My receiver also has zone 2 output that I could use to send the source to an Amp.
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short answer: no
long answer: yes
what’s more important is a proper headphone amp. your Onkyo may have a headphone out, but on receivers they are put as a convenience, they are an afterthought and not very well implemented.
a DAC is important and you should get one, but a proper headphone amp first.
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You don’t need a DAC. Both your PC and your receiver has their own. But the difference between those DACs and buying one is the quality of the DAC.
Honestly, if you’re happy with what you have, continue using it. That’s perfectly fine and you shouldn’t feel compelled to get equipment because other people have it.
Otherwise, a $100 DAC is like a done-and-done deal, for the most part. A Topping D10s is like seriously good for the price, and I don’t see a reason to really go higher unless we’re talking building an insane audio setup.
IMHO.
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hey Caleb, as a low cost option, take a look at the iFi Zen DAC…it’s about $140 new and has both DAC and Amp (6.5mm se out and 4.4mm balanced out) with a nice fun / warm sound signature, which the Sennheisers will like. if you look in the used market, you may find one for a lot less that lets you have the money to buy the optional power brick. the Zen DAC is USB powered, but the brick makes it a bit better and never lacking in power, especially if you buy balanced cables to use on the Senns.
I have the Zen DAC and love it, which is why I recommend it 
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So here’s a little more info, I love my current home theater setup. I have 2x Klipsch R-26F in the front L/R, 2x R-15M in the back L/R, 2x R-12SW L/R & 1 R-25C in the center. My brother, his wife, & 2 kids (3yr old & 1yr old) are “visiting”. They live overseas but due to the pandemic, their country is still closed. So after the toddlers go to bed I have to use headphones. I bought my Sony WH-1000XM4’s mainly for the ANC (to block out the sound of kids crying lol) & I like them for that & for their portability but when it comes to listening to media the sound just isn’t as full as my home theater. Also the sound compression over Bluetooth… it’s just not the same. So I would like some headphones that would have a listening experience equal or greater to that of my current speaker setup. I thought I would come here for advice before I purchased anything. I have spent many hours researching & watching youtube videos on headphones/DACs/amps. I have used Sennheiser in the past (like 25yrs ago) which is why I prefer them, but I’m open to other brands as well. I would like to spend around $200-300 on the headset & $200-400 on the amp… (if I need to buy a DAC that means I’ll have to split that $400 between the Amp & DAC) I’ve heard that DAC/Amp combos aren’t as good as a DAC/Amp stack. I’m also leaning towards a balanced XLR setup which is why I’m leaning more towards the 6XX or 58X over the 560S or 38X. I’m ok with a used DAC/Amp but would prefer a new headset (unless the headset price was low enough that I could buy new earpads still be a good deal).
So, to help others:
What kind of sound signature would you like?
The fact is, headphones will always be chasing after speakers. They can’t compete. But you can focus on what kind of listening you enjoy. So what genres of music do you listen to? Open or closed?
From there, it’s about matching the amp to the headphones.
I’m gonna say, for many headphones your receiver might be good enough. Receivers can be surprising headphone amps. Maybe not the absolute greatest measuring, but good enough. Hell, I love the A/B amp to give more body to headphones–dedicated class A headphone amps cost $$$. But for me, they’re too bulky to slam on my desk, and don’t run IEMs well at all.
Perhaps you’re not liking the Sony because of the signature. TBH, bluetooth has gotten so fucking good that there’s really no degrade in sound with the right codexes. I think you’re more disappointed with the sound signature–which is more dark, less highs and mids, more bass. So maybe a Senn 58X(or others) would be good. Try it on your receiver: if you’re happy with that, cool. If not, consider a dedicated amp.
Now DACs can be complicated with your computer and receiver. I’m not an expert on surround sound DAC processing and a headphone amp tagged on. I’ll leave that for others. But the simple solution is switching the output from your computer from HDMI to whatever DAC/amp through sound settings.
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Something less muddy, I want it to be clean & crisp, & to be able to hear the details of what I’m listening to. better highs & mids.
Yeah I know & I also know that my $700 budget wouldn’t be as good as my $3k speaker setup.
I like Classical, Pop, Rap, Rock(mainly trending top 100 music) also Acapella/Vocal only. Also movies/Tv & I play video games as well.
I’ve only owned closed back headphones but I’ve used open a few times in the past though.
I’ll try to borrow my bros 38x & see how they sound.
I love my Sony’s but mainly for when I’m trying to block out the world & thumping out some bassy Pop/top 100 music (thumping) but when it comes to playing games the bass is overpowering (so I can’t hear the detail of footsteps etc) same for movies/tv. they just sound muddy at times.
yeah Bluetooth has improved a lot, it may be a codec issue since it supports SBC, AAC, and LDAC but only via an A2DP connection which may mean my pc isn’t using A2DP.(which would explain why I enjoy listening to them with my phone more than my PC)
I’m not too worried, my receiver has 6.3mm headphone out & also zone 2 RCA stereo output. my pc also has Opt/Toslink out, & USB.
I suppose I could spend $500 on a DAC/Amp Combo/stack… I could always sell one of my Subwoofers to help pay for it lol.
As a point of reference here, I just got finished reviving an old Denon AVR-2808ci receiver that I thought was dying. Well, after I swapped it out I started to give it a good look and found that there was really nothing wrong with it at all! In fact, The Sennheiser HD280 Pro’s sound sublime plugged directly into the amp. So there won’t be any DACing here! 
I could bring the MX3 over and try its DAC to compare, and at some point I may do that. But I am betting it’s not going to sound any better. Different maybe, but probably not better. That is my hunch, anyway.
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You would have to spend way more than your Speaker set-up costs to even get close to replicating that sound on your head and even then… So let’s get that idea out of our mind first and fore-most.
If you are capable of going from PC to an AMP/DAC chain and then to your HP that would be the nicest upgrade based on what I think you are looking for. This doesn’t have to burn a hole in your pocket that can’t be mended. (noticed i said there WILL be a hole 
)
For shits and grins you could purchase an inexpensive HP like the Senn 58X and try it first. It will work on the HP out of your receiver, if that satisfies your craving for a good while, then you are a winner and no need to worry about mending that hole in the pocket. Come back and ask for the next step when you feel the need to drop more cash, we can help you spend it.
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So just a quick update, I got my Sennheiser/Drop 6xx, I had a lot of issues getting them to sound good out of my AV receiver jack. I had to change settings on my pc (tested stuff like speaker config, stereo, 5.1 etc) & the settings on my Reciever (different presets like direct, all stereo, Dolby, etc & I even found a setting to adjust the Headphone Jack Db) & ultimately I found it easier to just use the jack on my pc (because every time I decided to switch back to my speakers & had to change all the settings). Oddly I think that the front jack sounded better than the rear output (I have a Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master Mobo & it has a decent DAC) there was still a little noise & I had to keep the volume around 50-80%.
I did a lot more research on Dacs, Amps, & combos & per my own research I discovered the Ifi Zen Dac & was really impressed… & then it dawned on me “isn’t that the one Marzipan recommended?” so I came back here & sure enough it was. When I started looking for a good price on the Ifi Zen Dac I found out Ifi had just released a new model, the Ifi Zen Dac V2 which has MQA Decoding along with several other upgrades over the older model, which was enough to convince me to buy the V2 over the older Zen Dac. I did have one issue with it, when I got it I used my own cord (from an old HDD enclosure) because the included USB cord is super short. I ordered a cable & when the new cable arrived it made a huge difference. After that, I could clearly hear the difference between the Mobo Jacks vs the Dacs. I then started researching a balanced 4.4mm cable & decided to get Hart Audio Cables (HC-5 & Multi-Kit 1) & even got a discount for being a Hifiguides forum member . I couldn’t tell much difference between the stock & Hart 1/4" but I can tell a big difference using the 4.4mm balanced & the 1/4" its louder, clearer & has more punch to it.
Overall I’m pleased with my purchases, but I’ve decided I would like to get a Balanced Amp just to give my HP a bit more Oomph. I’m currently considering the Ifi Zen Can vs the Ifi Zen Can 6xx Signature. I like that the Signature comes with Ifi’s iPower X $99 power adapter, especially since I would like to get 5v adapters for the Zen Dac V2 & Can (the iPower is $49 iPower X is $99) I’m open to other suggestions as well. I found a used Massdrop Alex Cavalli Liquid Carbon X for $j150 being sold nearby, how would it compare to the Zen Can/signature? I also looked into other options like the Loxjie P20 Balanced Tube Amp but decided against it due to the cost of upgrading Tubes, power adapters, etc (although I saw a used one with several sets of tubes for $69) & after hearing about some of the issues people had with it.
Anyway, I just wanted to post an update & to say thanks to everyone that helped.
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