IEM discussion thread (Part 2)

[yogurt]

The ISN H60 is a $350 hybrid IEM with dual 8mm dynamic drivers (face-to-face) for lows, two Sonion BAs for mids, and two Knowles BAs for highs. It has an impedance of 18 ohms and sensitivity of 112 dB/mW at 1kHz. These are my impressions after a few days listening. Thanks to AudioGeek and the EU tour group for sending these along!

I like that ISN took a chance on the tuning here, to good effect. The mids are the star of the show, forward and complemented by nice mid-bass with good thump. The physicality of the mid-bass is really good, while still keeping the bass clean and definied. The presentation tends toward the intimate side, with good instrument separation despite not feeling as spacious as something like the TSMR Shock or Ziigaat Estrella. Vocals have a slightly dark/warm/husky character that I got used to pretty quickly, though the I found the mids-forward signature could get a bit fatiguing during longer sessions. While not particularly bright, there’s a touch of shout in the upper mids and the treble isn’t especially sparkly or airy. However, I’m sensitive to shout, so YMMV. I found the tuning worked well for acoustic/classic-rock type music, but lacked the sub-bass grunt that I look for when listening to hip-hop, pop, and electronic music. Besides missing that bass extension, the bass on this set is great.

Coming from the TSMR Shock and X, the H60 offers a different take on vocal presentation. While the Shock excels in vocal separation, and the X takes a more laid-back approach with thinner male vocals and more sub-bass focus, the H60 brings a warmer, more intimate vocal character.

At this sensitivity, they’re very easy to drive. However, this also meant I could clearly hear the noise floor when listening directly from my iPod 5th gen, though this wasn’t an issue with the Topping G5 or Qudelix 5k. I found my usual Moondrop Springtips (M and S) and Penon Liqueur Black (S) worked well.

The fit was unfortunately a dealbreaker for me. The wide (7mm) nozzles made them uncomfortable after short listening sessions, and I couldn’t manage more than about an hour at a time. The shell also created hot spots where it rested on my concha - though this is highly personal.

If you’re looking for a mids-centric set complimented with very well executed bass (with a focus on the mid-bass, rather than sub-bass), this is definitely a good set to consider.

[Rikudou_Goku]

@Sofa_King_Punk_88

At one point I was looking at the new Ibasso dx180 and saw that a DAC they sell (DC elite) was only 50 bucks cheaper. I never looked at specs tho to see why.

Also, dont spend more on your sources than your actual transducer…

@Sofa_King_Punk_88

Damn it! I am running pretty low on space in my phone, but do you require some type of connection to listen to your music? Sorry if this is a silly question, but was curious because some of us at times have no service

I have a big post about the server here.

RikudouGoku's Database (IEMs/Earbuds/Headphones Ranking list)

2024-10-03: Media server, Synology DS423+ About half a year ago, I made a pretty big purchase which I wanted to share since this is relevant to audiophiles as well. A Synology DS423+ NAS, which if you do not know what a NAS is, it is essentially a mini-PC with lots of storage capacity hooked up to your network so you can access files everywhere in your home (and access it from anywhere in the world if you want). I am using this as a way to store all my important files away from my PC as a backu…

You just need to have mobile data or I guess using public wifi also works if you dont have mobile data. And then using for example Tailscale will allow you to access your NAS from anywhere in the world even if the NAS is not open to the internet (no ports open on it), can also use a VPN on the NAS but that is much more complicated and I believe needs one port open so less secure.

Do note that in that post I wrote I did not have nor knew about tailscale so I just use the cache download function there. I am likely going to buy myself an Orange Pi to use as my VPN (PiVPN) (Along with DNS and some other stuff to offload from my actual NAS) so I can have it on another device for an additional security layer.

[domq422]

Am I totally wrong in understand how DACs work, then? I’ve recently come to understand that DACs do output power, just not to the levels needed for transducers to present sound properly.

[Sonofholhorse]

I assume that you’re talking about the voltage of the output signal (i.e. 2v, 2.5v, 4.0v, 5.0v). That’s not really what we mean by output power, as in to drive a transducer (headphone or speaker) but rather the strength of what is to be amplified by the amplifier. It’s true that a higher output voltage will make an amplified signal louder by comparison (i.e. you are multiplying watts by 2 vs watts by 4) but it doesn’t actually affect the amplifiers ability to provide current afaik.

[domq422]

Understood, I’ll see my self out now! ha

[Sofa_King_Punk_88]

Noooo. Don’t go dom!! You help and know your stuff

[countercharge]

Will you make squig.dac.amp

[Rikudou_Goku]

You have ASR for that and RAA and L7

[domq422]

There are times where I like helping, and then there are times like this where I am simply not knowledgeable at all when it comes to the electrical components and voltage and wattage and yada yada. I’ll leave that technical stuff to the boys that know what they’re talking about!

I just trust my ears and call it a day typically, this time I stepped out of that spot and got swiftly corrected, heh (which I appreciate the clarification).

[Sonofholhorse]

It’s all good, and we all learn every day! No shame in the game, my dude!

[givemebeer]

@SemperMalum

Element 3, I know that IEMs on it are overkill but the volume control, the power and even full balance at lower volumes - I love my IEMs on it.

Element 3 would be my buy one thing and walk away device. No volume control issues at low volume due to not having an analog pot when using iems, incredible preamp control that is button triggered and not socket triggered and just good enough all around to do everything to a good level and get on to enjoying the music.

As a current EL Amp2 owner, i’d buy it just for the volume control if they ever released in that form.

[givemebeer]

funny these get mentioned again, I saw the cases linked below and they’re cheaper and the same size as the GLCON I’ve been using but with a different mesh setup although after getting them i prefer the GLCON mesh setup.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RKW4FC8?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

[Sonofholhorse]

Looks to be a little smaller inside (2 x 3.9" vs 3 x 6.16") but more choices are always great, especially if they’re cheaper!
Edit: Here’s a size comparison between the GLCON I use for IEMs vs the one I use for my DAC & amp:

@givemebeer Those XINHS and ivipQ cases are great but way too big for my pockets haha; I use those for cable and tip storage most of the time. My preferred buds cases are actually the tiny zippered KBEar ones (fits ~3 pairs of buds or buds & foams very well in a compact package):

[givemebeer]

pretty much, they lend themselves better to something more compact like buds and tossing a dongle in the other pocket for on the go use. The funny bit is I actually use the GLCON cases of the same size as this and not the larger one.

Its all Xinhs cases from cable orders for the sets that go in larger cases

[SoundEater]

@pk500

the time

Trump or Obama?
HFGF or Reddit?

[Kenyon]

Apologies for the post as while I completely agree with the sentiment of what you have said - DAC if competent won’t make a difference so stick with one and better to put the money elsewhere, I would prefer to clear up some statements made as this was asked by an OP who wanted to understand this area in more detail.

@pk500

DACs don’t push power.

@domq422 - hope this helps.

DACs do push ouput voltage which in turn pushes power. Many studio DACs allow for higher voltage delivery which in turn powers amps differently. You would need to understand the amp sensitivity to understand how that additional voltage can affect clipping levels and so how the DAC volume would need to be set - which would then affect DR. So yeah you cannot boost the amp past power spec but you can decide how it will function. The way audiophiles talk about DACs being powerful I agree is complete bullshit but there is a reason that line of thinking, along with the idea of synergy developed and it is routed in a reality that gets a lot of studio use just not one really applicable to home use. Doesn’t help people on Head-fi/FB/Reddit constantly referring to dongles by their DACs and thinking the differences are down to chip instead of implementation or amp.

@pk500

DACs can slightly color sound due to the type of chip used.

That tuning happens way past 20khz so if you already think that the spec wars was superfluous in pushing for further clean and neutral devices then the idea that a DAC chip change would colour the sound in any meaningful audible way would not align as you would need devices transparent to those levels to be able to detect that (not to mention those accounts of golden ears which I always find novel in their mental gymnastics to deflect to testing - Goldensound & PassionforSound being amusing public examples). Archimago covered a lot of this, if you want to check it out.

@pk500

The rest is just wasted power that can lead to THD and noisy, colored output. The spec wars are more of a marketing exercise than true innovation.

Power does not nessitate THD or noise or a coloured output. These are all separate qualities that depend on components and implementation. The pushing of balanced to the lower tier consumer space helped reduce noise and has become a possibility due to the spec wars. Using negative feedback loops (which general use came out of the spec wars) helped deal with THD issues. Lowering output impedance (which general use came out of the spec wars) helped have a potential for low impedance, easy to drive IEMs that made the portable experience much more enjoyable without the sound being unpredictable. Actually having additional headroom is one of the things that prevents noise and THD as you can use gain in a more effective manner. You only have to look at US based Schitt products before the ASR exposure of the inadequacy of their devices and how they acknowledged this and changed - from build to components to actual implementation. The ESS hump implementation being for so long ignored by major western manufacturers when there was a known fix is another good example of this. So is the calling out of the traditional and high end pro market US/EU players in this space that spoke absolute bullshit (PS Audio or TotalDac for example) or suddenly had to change their chips in their devices as they were selling decades old DAC chips for $0000s (Weiss being a good example here).

While the current landscape is convoluted, and especially where DACs are concerned, played out - Topping/SMSL revolutionised home/portable audio giving us real price to performance and component transparency (same could not be said for QC tho - and that is the reason these devices do not reach the studio as they do not come with the same warranties and ease of customer service - be it in communication or return logistics / saying that - neither Schitt or JDS products make that grade also). Sad to see their role being general diminished in audiophile circles without a full understanding of the tech or history.

[Argha]

May I ask what switch are you using?

[potatopotata]

I kinda need some recs. Got both the linsoul coupon code for the 11.11 sale and gonna use the 50$ one on S08 and some eartips (clarion and s&s probably) to meet the minimum spending. I still got the 25$ coupon with 60$ minimum spending and plan to get another IEM in the 50-60$ region or maybe two iem which totals to 60/70$ max. Any recommendations? I want a different flavour compared to the S08. Thinking about Kiwi Cadenza and Tripowin Vivace, or tangzu yuxuanzi or xuan nv, simgot ew200, ew300, ziigaat cinno, kefine klean. But is there any more interesting or unique iem in this price range? Thanks!

[Ohmboy]

@Rikudou_Goku Hey buddy I know you’re a Sony fan boy what would you consider to be a fair price for an ok condition, fully functioning and complete Sony XBA-H3 be?..always been interested in this set

[Rikudou_Goku]

@Kenyon

DACs do push ouput voltage which in turn pushes power. Many studio DACs allow for higher voltage delivery which in turn powers amps differently. You would need to understand the amp sensitivity to understand how that additional voltage can affect clipping levels and so how the DAC volume would need to be set - which would then affect DR. So yeah you cannot boost the amp past power spec but you can decide how it will function. The way audiophiles talk about DACs being powerful I agree is complete bullshit but there is a reason that line of thinking, along with the idea of synergy developed and it is routed in a reality that gets a lot of studio use just not one really applicable to home use. Doesn’t help people on Head-fi/FB/Reddit constantly referring to dongles by their DACs and thinking the differences are down to chip instead of implementation or amp.

Yep true, thats what you see being measured here on ASR.

(and is also what I measure in my source page in my database.)
Usually 1vrms for the 10 usd tier dongles, 2Vrms for SE desktop tier and 4vrms for Balanced.

@Kenyon

Power does not nessitate THD or noise or a coloured output

hmmm from what I have seen in the dirt cheap area, they can actually be very powerful but majorly bad in terms of the resulting FR.
Something like this

(probably due to terrible OI.)