My new Andromedas and the perils of diminishing returns

IEMs / Other In-Ear Monitors (IEM)
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On a whim two weeks ago I placed an impossibly low bid on Ebay for a set of Andro 2020s. And won. For $510.

Why did I do this? I’ve been really digging my Etymotic ER4-XRs and thinking about how much more pleasure I’d get from something even better. The problem is that it wasn’t clear to me that anything a little more expensive would make a difference. More specifically, I paid $185 for the Etys. Would a $300 be worth it? Would the difference justify the cost? I sort of figured I’d need to spend a lot more for a meaningful difference. This is why I didn’t buy Ety Evos, which can be described as as good as the ER4s but a bit better. So why spend the money? If I were to bother, I figured I needed to jump up the scale by quite a lot. I wanted Andros, given the hype from only a few years ago by DMS, Z, etc. etc. They were worth every penny, they said, at an $1100 price point. I really wanted to see what the fuss was about. .

Anyway, they came. I’ve been listening to them a lot.

Are they good? Yes, very.
Are they better than the ER4-XR? Yes. No debate.
Are they knock my socks off better? No.
Are they worth $1k? I really can’t make the case.
Are they worth $500? I’m on the fence. If I didn’t already own a good set, the argument would be stronger.

Here’s the deal: it’s really clear that diminishing returns kicks in at about $300. My Etys are fantastic, and they are radically superior to my $100 Moondrop Starfields. Maybe a set of Blessing 2s, for about $300, are better, but I doubt radically so. I mean, I’m sure they’re good. But what about spending more than $300? What does one get?

Let’s put it this way, the difference between the Campfires and my Ets is less than that between the Etys and the Starfields. Also, that difference is primarily noticeable when:

  1. I A/B back and forth. If I’m not doing that I’m not really aware. It’s not as if the Etys have deficiencies that are noticeable if one isn’t comparing back to back. Then, yes, one can detect weaknesses.

  2. I’m playing certain tracks. It has to do with recording quality, I guess, but also other aspects of the track. Some tracks really sing on the Andros. With others I don’t think it makes a difference

  3. I have to be PAYING ATTENTION to the music. Most of the time I’m not. I’m just working and there’s music going on.

Now, let’s say there’s a good track, and I am paying attention. The Anddromedas have better imaging and sound stage. Clearly. They are brighter, which is a double-edge sword. Also a lot more revealing. Sometimes that’s great. Sometimes it doesn’t matter. The problem is that the difference is not proportionate to the extra cost.

Perhaps the only real advantage is that the Andromedas sort of put an end to my curiosity regarding the experience of high end. I can listen to the Andromedas knowing that I’m more or less listing to “as good as it gets” without paying really stupid money. Of course, maybe these days Oracles or Monarchs or some other c. $600 ChiFi are even better, I don’t know. But I know that the Etys or other roughly $300 sets are probably about 95% of what the $1k-plus IEMs deliver. If I buy new IEMs now, it will be for the sake of trying something very different, like a planar, or a single dynamic driver. There the goal won’t be better, just a different flavor.

In other words, spending lots of money for “better” is not a good idea over $300. It might make sense to spend for “different,” but in that case, too, I can’t get behind spending much money.

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Yet another man came to EXACTLY same conclusion (I was there as well 2months ago after buying MEST). There are and were posts like that everywhere in the audiophile community and probably you have even read them at some point. But this is typically human thing that we can only learn from our own mistakes, curiosity is stronger than thinking rational :slight_smile:

In my case afterwards I had a bit of salty feelings in the beginning toward all of the hype generators around the internet telling “this is something else, well worth the money spent!”, but in the end I don’t regret it honestly as I know I would be there sooner than later
(and for me that was quite soon, with not a lot of spending in between in low-end category). At least I know I don’t need anything more IEM wise, because it would not be worth it for sure (though I would love to trial to Trailli and Susvara at some point to see what it is all about).

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This is my take as well. After hearing so much talk about diminishing returns I don’t see myself ever reaching into the $400+ space unless I can actually demo them.

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I think that’s right. If you can demo, and it knocks your socks off, then spend the money.

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In some countries (like Poland) demoing is almost impossible… And than you have those sweet sweet deals like OP had with Andro and I had where the listed price was 1/3 of MRSP and reviews told that it is worth even the original money… This is what got the most people in my mind

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Yeah I hear you. It’s near impossible to demo in the US as well. $400 is my personal limit so if a sweet deal on a hi end item puts it under that I’ll feel more okay about biting

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“Perhaps the only real advantage is that the Andromedas sort of put an end to my curiosity regarding the experience of high end”.

THAT is it, right there.

Thing is, sonic characteristics improve only marginally. Beyond a certain point, where you’ve got 90-95% of very, very good sonic performance (and the real sweet spot for your dollar), you start paying for DIFFERENT rather than BETTER.

Also, other features become the more standout ones. Durability, build, design & style, aesthetics, accessories, exquisite materials (I’m looking at you, Focal Utopia Tournaire), finesse, craftsmanship, ‘hype’, “collector’s syndrome (wanting to collect a wide variety of gear - maybe for personal satisfaction, maybe for bragging rights)”, "rarity (limited edition stuff, rare gear, bragging rights), curiosity, placebo…

You’re not paying for audio at that point. You’re paying for something else.

It’s just like car collectors. No car is perfect. But there’s one that’s real fast. Then there’s one that’s very comfortable. Then there’s one you modified to the end of the world. Then there’s one that stays parked in your 4th garage all the time, but you walk every guest that comes to your house to it - maybe even take them out for a spin once in a while.

People fool themselves, and try to impose on the fact that the gear just sounds better. Not quite. But hey, if it is something you do, and can afford to, no one’s stopping you. Just like no one’s stopping the guy with multiple thousands of dollars of wristwatches some like to collect. Doesn’t tell the time any better - but it’s some sweet stuff to own and keep.

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I had been toying with the idea of upgrading from my HD660s to a Focal Clear but now think it silly. I’m sure it’s better, but…unless I can demo it, it’s hard for me to believe it’s THAT much better.

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By the way, I’ve mostly been listening on a BTR5. I just plugged it into my Asgard 3 and find that the sound is better, at least with the classical track I’m listening to, a big symphonic work. What I haven’t done is A/Bed with the Andros and the Etys on the Asgard to do a proper apples to apples comparison. But I can see how theoretically with a better dac/amp the difference between the Campfire and Etys might grow. That will be my next project.

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I have the Andro2020s as well as Asgard 3 and a BTR3K and I have tried them on those. To me they are better on the Fiio. Also ran them balanced on my Bryston BHA-1 and really did not enjoy at all.

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I believe IEMs should be evaluated on the basis of how they sound on portable gear.

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Most definitely… I much prefer over ear full headphones for all non- mobile use. On my little BTR3k they are very very good.

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Interesting: If I go from the Andros to the HD660s, the HD660s sounds a touch muddy or perhaps veiled. After a bit my ears get used to it, and it’s fine.

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even after getting a Mest mk2 my Timeless and Mjolnir mk2 were still my faves now I also have a Nana 2.0 which may be my new favorite

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I am really beginning to dislike the ‘diminishing returns’ conversations and statements. I have sampled the bottom end and gone up to the top end and can definitely say there is a difference between $1000 head phones, $2000 headphones and $4000 headphones. they get more nuanced and subtle after $2000, but they are still there and within that is value.

it’s no different with optics (another love of mine) where you can get 80 - 90% the performance of high end glass for half the price or lower. for some though, that extra edge of sharpness, flatness of field and pinpoint objects is worth the premium.

alas, I lament, headphones do not get the same level of additional fit and finish as optics do as the bits n pieces of a $900 scope is a far cry from the extra care in machining, etc, you get with a $5000 scope. hit up an astronomy shop sometimes and feel how rough the focusing knob, hinges and diopters are on a $200 binocular vs a $500 bino vs a $3000 bino. yeh, it’s almost exponentially more expensive, but the care and attention given make the experience of using them sublime.

same thing for audio*, it gets sublime.

*the usual exceptions apply, MQA, expensive cables or other claims with no factual or empirical data or evidence…like the glass poo sculptures @M0N has throughout his place. :wink:

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it’s no different with optics (another love of mine) where you can get 80 - 90% the performance of high end glass for half the price or lower.

This is the definition of diminishing returns though… It’s fine if people feel that an extra 10% bump is worth a doubling in price but for some people (myself included) $600+ dollars is a lot and it’s a lot harder to justify spending that for minimal gains

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indeed, but it’s entirely based on the users perspective / viewpoint. some are chasing audio perfection and will spend whatever is necessary to reach nirvana. some simply cannot afford to, like me, but as I have been corrupted and know the difference, I yearn for the chance / time / opportunity I could buy something like the Focal Stellia.

all that said, whatever I am listening with is my end game at that moment. I am not using them because I don’t like their sound, I am using them because I do and the immersion they provide gives me what I want right then and there. :smiley:

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Often, my biggest problem with the way some of these conversations go is a problem of the difference between “diminishing returns” and “absent returns”.

To be clear, the OP didn’t confuse the two in this thread.

However, it is very common that I read an argument that sounds something like this:

“I once tried something outside of my comfortable price range, and it didn’t sound any better than what I comfortably afford - therefore any gear I can’t afford is a complete waste of money, and only exists to be marketed to imbeciles with more money than brains”

This is the attitude and bias undercurrent that inevitably gets injected into these conversations.

However, diminishing returns is normal in most markets. Each dollar you spend on a bit of kit is going to bring back to you less performance than did the dollar before it. This is true whether you spend $30 to upgrade your $12 headphones, or you spend $30,000 to upgrade your $12,000 setup.

For someone with absolutely nothing - no music at all, even a $10 pair of headphones is an infinite improvement. If that person then spends $100 to upgrade, they will instantly be hit with diminishing returns. They will legitimately be able to say “yeah, it sounds better - but only about twice as good, not ten times better”, and there you have diminishing returns!

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TL/DR;

Diminishing =/= Absent

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OP here. The more I’ve listened, the more I’ve come to appreciate the Andros. They are excellent. And the best listening device I currently own. So, yes, diminishing returns, but not absent returns.

Also, I appreciate Z’s argument about when pricey items might be worth it: If this is something one’s going to use often and over a long period of time, why not?

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