Need help with the HD6xx series

Guys can you help me? I was looking for new headphones and inevitably ran into the HD6xx series. I did my research for couple of days now and tried to “understand” the 3 HD6xx series headphones in comparison to one another and then found out about the 58x Jubilees. I googled like a maniac about these as well but I can’t figure where to put them in comparison. Can you help me?

From what I’ve learned:
HD600 - neutral sound, maybe a tad mid focused
HD650 - warm sound
HD660 - neutral with more clarity than HD600

And then I found different opinions about the 58x. I read they’re discout 660s and on another site it was stated they would sit in between 600 and 650 and can’t rech the level of “crispness” from the 660s. Since I cannot go to a store to listen to them because they’re from Massdrop I’d like to get some clarity on where to put these headphones in terms of their sound signature. From all those different reviews and opinions I read online, I am very confused right now and my current “knowledge” would be that people kinda agree about the 650 having the most unique sound signature being warm while 600, 660s and 58x are closer to each other having different variations of neutral sound!?

Enlighten me please.

the 600 is a incredibly neutral flat spounding hard to drive headphone and it’s very intimate.
the 650 is a little wider , a little warmer than the 600
the 660 is warmer than the 650, better imaging , and wider soundstage definitely the widest soundstage out of the 3.
the 58x has similar tuning to the 660 the imaging is the same and soundstage is basically the same but has less resolution especially in the highs.

I persoanlly prefer the 660 or the 58x over the other 2 as these guys have a more precise a little more pronounced bass and I love the the increased width and along with the imaging.

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This range has gotten so much more hype than they ever deserved.

For a good couple of years there was zero competition in terms of the 600 and 650. That led to them building up a cult following and all they ACTUALLY did was bring the mids forward witch led people to believing they are hearing more “detail” in terms of what they were used to.

Compare them against cans today and you can easily forget each one of them. Grado plays the same trick but does that with their treble.

Just buy any of those and go for the nuance you prefer. People owning each one of these sets have genuinely wasted their money and will try and convince you that they haven’t just to make themselves feel better…

Bottom line, any one of these will be a different sound to what you are used to. That’s the “Sennheiser” sound that has fooled many a people into thinking they are the best thing since sliced bread. All and all, each one of these is a SLIGHT variation of a completely different sound signature. Just go for whatever nuance you prefer and don’t let people’s opinion of each set influence you because 99% of the people claiming they the know the difference between these sets are just pretentious idiots.

Huh? No, they have a cult following because they’re one of the most neutral headphones you can find.

I mean, there’s frequency response graphs, too.

Green: HD58Xs
Purple: HD600s
Orange: HD650s
Brown: OLD HD650s

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That’s my point. They are stupidly similar. Even the original picture got them confused underneath the red 5.

I meant mids forward compared to the V shape of the headphones back in the day. They are good headphones. That I can’t deny, I just get annoyed with people saying they are THE best. And then going on how they love the neutrality of the HD600 but then spending a ton of money on tubes to change the neutrality that they were just praising 5 minutes ago.

Anyhow… Keyboard rant over! To @Dober original question, I would pick whatever headphone of these excites you most. To me that was the 58x due to price and being 150 ohm. Just don’t buy all 4.

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While they all sound similar. They do all have a difference in soundstage and imaging. And that’s something measurements can’t pick up on

That’s what I mainly think of most Sennheiser 6whateverwhatever headphones. The freq are similar, but the detail retrieval and imaging/soundstage are different (presentation of sound)

Thanks for all those answers, guys. Much appreciated.

So from what I understand they are actually fairly similar. Since they are not similiarly priced it would make - logically - sense to simply buy the cheapest one I guess.

I took a look on the posted graph as well and on first sight I’d agree they look fairly similar as stated by another user. But is there a way on how to interpret those graphs correctly? I am sorry, I am by no means an expert and from what I can see on the left is the bass frequencies, mid = mid, and on the right side are the highs. Can someone in short explain what the curves tell me? I mean on the left side where the graph starts the purple one is closest to the bottom and the green one closest to the top. Since I figured this is the bass curve which one of the headphones has “more bass” or “better bass”? The purple one or the green one? Or does someone have a link in which is explained how frequencies graphs are read properly?

Also I must say I was fairly surprised on reading such strong opinions about the Sennheiser series. From what I googled before basically everyone has put them on kind of a virtual throne and was praising them. :slight_smile: Even in comparisons I found against other current headphones like an AKG712 or Fidelio X2.

tl;dr: To answer the tuning or frequency response portion of your question, Dober, according to some well-regarded measurements the HD 58X has the upside of less sub-bass roll-off than any of the 600 series. But the trade-off is that it is somewhat recessed in the upper mids.

Long-winded: To extend on LeDechaine’s response, here is another set of data points toward understanding where the HD 58X fits in. Again, these measurements are all from the same (reliable) source called Oratory 1990 (https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index), but this time these are raw, un-massaged data*:
Senn%20HD%20600
Senn%20HD%20650
Senn%20HD%20660%20S
Senn%20HD%2058X
Explanation for those not familiar with reading FR graphs:

General
The orange line is the frequency response. (Sound is pulses of air pressure change. The faster these changes arrive at the ear the higher pitched they will sound. Frequency = pitch. Lion’s growl = low or deep or bass in pitch. Bird’s chirp = high or treble in pitch. Human voice in the middle. See the graphic I appended to the end of this post**.)

The broad green line is a bass-lover’s version of a flat or reference frequency response. So I added an alternate thinner green line to each graph to indicate an un-boosted or flat bass response.

The left/right axis covers the human audible spectrum of frequencies/pitches from deepest bass on the far right to shrillest treble on the far left.

The up/down axis goes from quiet to loud in units called decibels or dB. Wherever the orange line rises above the green line any sound in that region of frequencies will be louder than they should be. How far above the green line the orange line is indicates how much louder that region of frequencies will be. Conversely, wherever the orange line falls below the green line sounds in that region will be quieter than they should be. The 1 dB loudness change from one horizontal line to the next is just barely perceptible.

(Note: looking at just the wide green line, the elevation on the left is just the personal preference of bass-lovers. But the at-first gentle then rapid rise from the middle of the graph to the right is the very real loudness boost that comes from the particular shape of the human ear. Our brains take that ear boost for granted and edit it out of our perception. But headphones have to reproduce it or the brain will make us perceive a relative loss of loudness.)

Particulars
The first thing all four of these graphs have in common is that the deepest bass (below 60 Hz) is progressively quieter than it ideally should be. Few acoustic instruments and no human voices extend in this region. But certain genres have lots of action down there. If it’s important to what you listen to, you’re likely to already know that.

The next thing we might notice is that they all have a slight loudness boost in the 100 to 300 Hz region, roughly the upper bass and lower mids. This is a combination of what recording engineers call the warmth and mud frequency regions. Elevation here causes instruments and voices to sound too thick. (But this issue is small for these headphones and will rarely be noticed.)

Next, the middle mids, roughly from 300 to 1000 Hz, the heart of the human vocal range looks to be excellently on target in all but the HD 58X. But much of the 58X discrepancy is actually due to the green line being placed too low on that graph. Once we mentally drop the green line by 1 dB to get a valid comparison with the other graphs the issue pretty much goes away.

Next, the upper mids, roughly from 1000 to 3000 Hz, are recessed or quieter for the HD 660 S and the HD 58X than is ideal but the others are near-perfect. These frequencies are the highest two octaves on a piano and are higher than all but the shrillest female voice ranges.

Finally, the far right of the graphs are the treble frequencies. These mainly cover the overtones produced by voices and instruments in addition to their fundamental frequencies. Loudness above the green line in this region can be irritating to painful where that excess of loudness coincides with a person’s treble sensitivities.

Three of these four headphones err very much on the side of too quiet, rather than the too loud side in the treble region. The HD 600 has two tall spikes at the far right. Keep in mind that few people past their teens will be able to even hear that final spike. Never heard anyone report being bothered by the second-to-last spike. There is also likely to be great variance from unit to unit of a particular model of headphone in this region.

The only other headphones I’ve seen graphs for that rival these Sennheisers for neutrality are the more expensive open-back Focals. Neutrality/flatness can be a good thing if you listen to a broad range of music genres or if you listen to purely acoustic music like folk, jazz or (god forbid) classical. In general, the value of neutrality is more in doing no harm rather than in doing good. Any non-neutrality may have enjoyable consequences for one genre yet have equally irritating consequences for another.

Footnotes
*LeDechaine’s graph presents measurements from the DIY Audio Heaven site (https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/). The frequency curves of the DIY graphs are compensated. That means they show how the raw data varies from some equivalent of the broad green reference line seen in the Oratory graphs I show.

Since I can’t find the reference line being used anywhere on the DIY site, I don’t know exactly how to interpret the DIY graphs. Does the DIY reference line include a bass boost like the Oratory green line does? How high is the treble peak in the DIY reference? Dunno. But as long as you’re strictly comparing one DIY graph to another, as Le Dechaine does, there’s still a lot to be learned from them.

**Frequency/pitch visual:
Bass-Mids-Treble%20(small)

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I am, a bit. But that’s because I was used to HD280s (they had NOTHING over 10khz compared to HD58Xs). It sometimes feel like my tinnitus is trying to “go higher” in the frequency range since I got them.

I don’t care. Worth it. :stuck_out_tongue:
(And no I’m not cranking the volume and becoming deaf.)

Well, it’s your sanity… ;) Personally, I recently noticed a particular high frequency emphasis seemed to be aggravating a tinnitus-like ringing so I eq’d it down.

Back to the thread topic, I look forward to hearing any further subjective reports on the individual models and comparing them to what the graphs show. I think these recent expensive measuring equipment graphs are pretty accurate. But they can only reflect the tuning of one particular unit of a given model. Sennheiser is reputed to be especially consistent in driver matching. But then there’s also the matter of ear pad compression with continued use.

Acidleak describes the 600 series as being mid-forward. That makes sense and seems valid counterpoint to the 600-series neutrality mantra. There’s the sub-bass roll-off at one end, the non-recessed lower and middle mids, the laid-back mid and high treble, plus the 3 kHz peak is somewhat recessed in some of these models.

Two headphones that made a serious attempt to nail some version of neutral, like the Harman target, are the Viso HP50s and the Oppo PM-3. Haven’t heard either. But my read on their reviews is that both are so constrained by all the tweaks needed to get everything under control that they sound somewhat tame and energy-less. Be interesting to see what future progress in materials science brings to the tuning conundrum. But for now I prefer to just use EQ to get things nailed down tight.

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Haha :laughing: I don’t know what life is without tinnitus, I just always had it, always thought it was normal, so, shrugs. :slight_smile:

About the laid-back mids (from diy audio heaven/hd58x review):

The small dip is around 2.5kHz is actually desirable as the measurement rig has no fake Pinna so in reality that part of the frequency range won’t sound recessed at all as the Pinna (ear) boosts the 2-5kHz part of the frequency range a few dB when sound is coming from the side of the head.

About the laid-back high treble… diyaudioheaven’s graph goes to 30khz! They’re neutral up to 20khz and going down after.

OK – let’s unravel this.

Solderdude is referring to the dip artifact inherent in his budget measuring rig. Sounds like he is saying that to read his measurements properly we have to mentally boost the 2 to 5 kHz region of each of his graphs.

The graphs I’m using have no such problem, so any dip in the 2 to 5 kHz region is presumably an actual thing, not a measurement artifact.

I’m impressed but since adult human hearing rarely gets to 18 kHz anything past that point is largely theoretical. (Still, nice that he can check manufacturers’ hi-res claims beyond 20 kHz.)

Again, I have to ask: who knows whether they’re neutral? Show me the compensation curve he’s using. Then tell me how to also compensate for his measurements rig’s lack of an accurate ear canal simulation on top of the lack of a pinna.

But just going on the assumption that his graphs have meaning past 5 kHz, I still see 5 dB ups and downs all through the 5 kHz to 20 kHz range.

Can we agree on neutral-ish? I’m good with that. ;)

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“Neutral-ish” is the best we (uh, not “we”, but, headphones manufacturers), can do now. It’s apparently really hard to do. Especially over 10khz. 99% headphones don’t even care about what’s there (or not). Heh. By the way, the rtings graphs shows the Nad HP50 are even more mid-focused than all the Sennheiser 6–s.

That’s pretty much the definition of mid-focused. :laughing:

Talking about the harman curve, someone already said “we don’t know” what “perfect” is. Personally? I don’t even care about 5dB peaks in the harman curve. It’s nitpicking, and/or basically ear canal differences anyway.

So, back on the subject: the HD6-- won’t ever be 100% neutral: they’re open-back. Not much sub-bass possible. But they’re definitely in the top 10, or even the top 5, of the most neutral open-back headphones.

Also, Oppo PM-3s? Wow, it’s a “#fail” for me. I trust rtings, and could not listen to this horrible 10khz mountain.

https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-2/graph#344/2031

Huh, I never had a problem with it when I listened to it. I don’t remember it having that much of an emphasis

According to the InnerFi graph for the PM-3 made soon after its release, it didn’t have this treble spike. But the Rtings and Oratory graphs – both made later – do show it, And it’s not subtle. Perhaps it was deliberately added to address early criticisms that the PM-3 was too polite in the treble (and lacked detail overall).

That would definitely be pretty interesting of that was the case

Back on topic, I don’t have any hear-before-buy options where I live. So I use the raw measurement data to simulate the frequency response of some other headphone on my DT 1990s using EQ. Since I’ve long toyed with the idea of buying a used HD 600, 650 or 6XX in the past, I’ve created and listened to simulations of the first two. I could use the HD 600 as my go-to EQ for the DT 1990, it’s that close to flat (flat is my goal since I want timbral accuracy above all else.)

Just created the EQ simulations for the 650, 660 S, and 58X. All have similar thick lower mids and muffled upper mids peak. I’d need to EQ any of these for my listening needs – although the 58X is a little better than the other two.

Now whether anyone else would feel the same way is a very different matter. I suspect anyone who is adapted to a typical planar magnetic would have no problem with this sound.

(BTW: measurement errors and unit-to-unit variance make this simulation trick very much a rough-n-ready, ballpark sort of thing. I can’t do it on my other headphones due to pad wear in one case and lack of a good-enough measurement set in another case.)