And, IAC, given
as fascinating as 660 vs 1990 may be, it’s likely a side issue. (Sad, 'cause I’d love to see some lively discussion on this neutrality thing.)
personally not a big fan of neutral headphones I like neutral lite headphones or headphones that do things uniquely sound sig wise. for example I listent to a ton of hip hop my main headphones are my 58x and my 990’s I wear the 58x if I want to listen to just lyrics but if I want to focus on them 808’s the 990’s are the way to go. if I want to listen to the whole thing though I pop em on the speakers and just jam out
I’m pretty sure I gave my first recommendation to the OP, though far be it for me to stunt someone else’s audio journey, I tried to drop descriptions of other headphones in as well. I tried to make comparisons since I know some things are not to my taste. The DT 1990 and HD 660S discussion is indeed a side issue because they’re likely priced beyond @1exe’s budget anyway.
To connect the recommendations to the “neutrality” discussion, I’d just like to say to the OP that when enthusiasts like us say “your ears may be different,” it’s not (usually?) a put down, but a literal physical difference that affects how we hear. I mentioned before that I think Beyer’s higher frequencies resonate in my ears: different frequency wavelengths have different length “ripples,” and my ear canal (before the first bend) are about as long as the wavelength of the same frequency that is emphasized already on a DT 880. The outer ear has all kinds of influence too, but I’m still scratching the surface of this myself as I learn. If someone (including me) recommends a headphone but you don’t like the balance of frequencies… return it, try something else, especially if the same person said there is more/less of something that you want. As audiophiles often say, if it sounds good, it is good! Easy mantra to live by 
Given the above (and good intentions to M0N), I wouldn’t say what we’re looking for is perceived neutral frequency response (loudness having about an even balance), but rather “realism” and the headphone is “transparent” without coloring the sound away from what we deem natural. That requires a balanced frequency response, very good timbre (which is separate from pitch or loudness), very short ringing (though sometimes a touch of bloom or mud can be fun with something really intense), distinct sense of placement (imaging) and distance (soundstage), and probably some other things We instinctively hear (but I may not be able to quantify and express yet).
I respect Tyll, and even if his measurements were amateur, he did measure a huge variety of headphones on the same rig for over a decade, with an Audio Precision analyzer and software (albeit an older model) and a professional mic dummy head (I forget the brand) for the purpose of having them published on Inner Fidelity and Headroom. Tyll’s rig measured more brands and models of anyone else I can think of. I don’t see them as amateur, but as measuring accuracy has improved with time, I do mostly see his rig’s measurements as useful in comparison to eachother.
Apologies if my long posts bug anyone because of their length; I met Douglas Stephens at RMAF earlier this month, and he told me I had to check out his forums. This thread has my first posts here, and I’ve put a lot (too much?) thought into my responses
Very off topic: I just discovered the Chrono Cross soundtrack, and it’s amazing!! Here’s a whole fun playlist of songs with soundstage depth (I was listening with my Audeze Möbius, which has a DSP to make the soundstage “more,” but it was fun sounding regardless!). Here’s a playlist of songs with great soundstage, feel free to add songs that fit the theme: https://open.spotify.com/user/evshrug/playlist/4e8ObKSmXL1ZhK28N9qAbD?si=OEhbht_ESTmedf19icJYLA
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I would say transients aren’t something for focus on for a realistic as I would say headphones with both fast and slow transients can sound natural
And I would also say that soundstage is more then just the width. In my mind if something has good soundstage, it also has to be able to accuracy recreate a room or sense of space with imaging that assists in placement
I am more of the kind of the person that kinda doesn’t focus on measurements as they really can’t tell you how a headphone really sounds imo
Very glad to see some support for my pet theory that one of the reasons the beyerdynamic treble is so contentious is a mix of overall treble sensitivity together with ear canal resonances together with a person’s preferred loudness level.
Hopefully any association of Tyll with the word amateur doesn’t come from my putting those two words in the same sentence above. I was contrasting his professional measurements with the amateur nature of the other source I was referring to. Tyll made his living in good measure by doing measurements. That qualifies as professional in my book. (I also agree with Tyll that measurements have a role to play in headphone discussions and measurements, if only in the same way that boats have anchors and trains have rails.)
Keep them coming is all I have to say! And with that I’ll put some popcorn in the microwave then mosey back to enjoy any further exchange between you, M0N and anyone else that gets lured in.
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Ey! Axel Grell told me once a headphone never sounds like the measurements.
“Never?”
“Never!”
Which is part of why I believe measurements can be a start, but the ultimate judge is still going to be listening yourself. I think there’s things we don’t know how to quantify (yet?), like timbre. Plus purely objective conversations can get really dull and really intense at the same time! It’s good to mix and match sometimes though.
I think it’s part of the whole package though. If a headphone can crisply present more of what the microphone captured, the way the mic captured it, then that’s less distortion from the original. Like I said before though, slower transient can still be fun. And it’s part of several things that help make a headphone more malleable to be whatever you want it to be.
I use imaging to refer to placement, and soundstage to denote width and depth. You can have a really good sense of direction (especially with a binaural recording!) and still have a sense of a small space, or a big space but the placement is diffuse (or blurred, as some say). My favorites are when these two aspects are very strong, and I’m a BIG proponent of 3D sound!
I also think DSPs can make a big difference in that area. On my home office desk, right now, there’s a Turtle Beach DSS2, Creative G5, Sennheiser GSX 1000, and my new baby, a Smyth Realiser A16 (but man is calibrating that thing intimidating).
Very much support it! It’s worth it to say when a headphone is going to be polarizing, but that still doesn’t mean some people won’t love it. When I did headphone reviews, I was vehemently against scores, it’s better to give someone an idea of what something “is” and clearly outline where something is your opinion.
OH! Thanks for the clarification! I missed that you were referring to Tyll and another source. I’ll have to go reread the other post, but right now I actually have a little work to finish tonight. But this discussion has been great! Got the writing juices flowing!
Tyll’s measurement rig!
Pretty much yeah, I just dislike getting wrapped up in technicalities. They are useful, but like you state listening yourself is the final challenge. I’ve heard stuff that looks awesome on paper sound pretty undesirable.
I should have been more clear because that was kinda what I was trying to say lol. The transients are part of the package and shouldn’t be used to judge a headphone without a lot more information. All the aspects come together to create great sound
That looks pretty interesting. I personally just take a headphone for what it is without much eq or dsp, but processing can greatly help for some for sure.
Pretty much. I try to represent both sides fairly and always specifiy that it’s my option. This hobby is too subjective for anything lol.
Also just realized we’ve hijacked this thread lol
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Would make me feel better that that’s the theory. I have above average hearing bfor my age but love my 990’s sound. Never figured out why all the signs point to me not liking them at all but for some reason. The treble peaks are enjoyable as fuck. But there will be the occasional song where it does get too sibilant
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My mom’s boyfriend LOVES sparkly treble. He performs guitar and sings, and on his speakers he always turns up the treble. Last night, we put 2+2 together: his ear canals are huge, like Apple EarPods will just fall out and he always uses large IEM tips. So, he probably hears the world a little darker, and he wants his “extra” treble to compensate.
Just don’t overdo it. We’re just talking about resonance and how shorter ear canals (before the first bend) amplify what is already there. The rapid back-and-forth “ripples” of treble put the most stress on the hairs in our cochlea (cilica? I’m not sure I remember the proper term off the top of my head) and that’s why our high range is the first to weaken. Almost nobody 30 years and older can hear up to 20 kHz (I can hear up till about 15-16 kHz before the volume rolls off sharply… I like to tell myself it’s ok, because those tones are beyond mosquito irritating 
).
Also @M0N, maybe we did hijack this thread… but I’ve seen a million like it on head-fi, and the original poster almost never comes back after reading like the first three posts 
. If 1exe comes back though, hope he finds all this extra info interesting! I was in his place like 8 years ago, and we’re sharing the latest stuff we’ve learned being in this hobby!
P.S. the Smyth Realiser A16 is INCREDIBLE with the hyper intense sound of the Modern Warfare beta. Recommended game to play!!
My entire family has really good hearing (cept for my dad lol), and my mom who is a fair bit older then 30 can still hear to around 18k evenly. My sister’s is crazy good. Probably why most of the family likes higher end audio lol
Edit: I should add that I am sitting around 16-18k for my realistic hearing
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This is a more civil discussion on treble than the one I made a couple months back where a guy was claiming he had he 1’s and could hear EMI through the 800 pairs of Beyers he tried in his life because Beyer used bad solder according to him I’m sure @M0N remembers
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Lol yeah, no comment…
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You mean the Sennheiser HE-1 Orpheus?
Electro-Magnetic-Interference on Beyers? Because of… solder? I’m just going to say I don’t know ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I used to hear EMI every time I got a text message and used my tube amp (less so with a mil-spec Russian Tube, and I genuinely believe those quartz crystal “vials” that enclose the HE-1’s tubes help a lot to prevent that!), so if I heard some of that squelching or hiss, the first place I’d look would be where part of my signal chain was acting like a radio (the amp, or maybe bad interconnect plugs but that isn’t really EMI).
@M0N, if you can hear past 20 kHz (with what sound system?) then you are very fortunate and in rare company. I don’t enjoy pure sine waves over 10 kHz, but with a more pleasant timbre, I’ve read that harmonics in the “super” treble region are so directionally-specific that they can really help a brain interpret imaging. I manage quite well regardless though!
Nah I’m pretty sure he was either a troll or a liar cause he honestly didn’t know much about audio. And yes he was talking about the orpheus. And yes EMI cause of solder.
I found this out when I got my hearing tested at whatever you call a hearing specialist, and I was pretty surprised. Last time I went was last year ish. I really don’t notice anything different because most modern music really doesn’t have any information in that range anyway, but with super high quality music there’s something there that just makes it better up there. I know it’s there but don’t know what it’s doing. That might be why I care alot about timbre perhaps lol. Most of my higher end headphones and speakers let me hear this, but with some of my cans it’s kinda absent
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It would make sense since tubes are sensitive to emi, and that does happen with some cheap solid state amps as well.
But yeah there should be no sonic difference between the solder used if it was done properly, and if there was interference or emi, changing the solder out if it was done correctly would not change that. And I’m pretty sure beyer has figured out how to solder a while ago lol
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Btw I do consulting for DROP now! I wonder what headphone(s) the OP eventually got? haha
I know it’s been a long time, but I had missed one of the replies and re-reading the whole convo I quite enjoyed this thread 