Yes there is nothing like experience, even if you never get there, megabuck systems are worth hearing.
I can still only aspire to the first very high end systems I heard decades ago, and itâs never stopped me enjoying what I have.
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My advice is to not worry about tubes amps until after youâve had plenty of time with the 6XX on the Element II. I own Crack and Tuba tube amps and I still prefer the 6XX on solid state. Though thatâs mainly because my favorite tubes donât tune the 6XX to my preferences.
Depending on the amp, you can get some subjective improvement using a tube preamp. Hereâs a thread on the subject. Theyâre cheap, so it doesnât hurt to try them out. But I wouldnât bother unless you really think it might tweak the sound in the right direction after listening to the 6XX and element II
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Hopefully you will not take my response as a criticism or attack, but instead as the opportunity to enter into healthy conversation and teach me something. I am, unfortunately, a philosophy professor by trade, and thus naively believe that explaining oneâs position and hearing out arguments is not an attack or impolite, but an opportunity to learn. Like Socrates, I know that I do not know⊠But how is one is one to learn what they donât know if one is afraid to explain what they believe and thus be open to being corrected
I was not claiming that it could never make a difference, only that I could hear no difference between the models I had in front of me, and certainly not on the basis of remembering one to the next. I should have said, I suppose, that it did not sound any different to me under auditioning conditions and despite the fact that I was being âprimedâ by the salesman⊠the second time it happened!
Likewise, not saying that synergy could never be a thing (to the contrary, I suggested that this could well be precisely why particular tube amplifiers are recommended for the 6xx.) I am absolutely convinced that it was nonsense in that instance. It didnât help (although I did not realize it at the time) that the salesman himself was quite conflicted such that he told me how the engineers in the back claimed that all functional amps sound the same. I told him I could certainly hear the difference, to which he said âIâm not so sure.â He also, however, mentioned that of course they donât let those engineers out onto the sales floor, and that he still did give stuff a listen as well. But he wasnât sure that there was a difference. Now I know he should have been more precise in order for his claim to make sense, as I sure as hell knew that my early teenage JVC sounded like utter crap in comparison to my later Harmon Kardon, etc. when powering the same speakers.
This is rather the important point, in the end. If I canât hear the difference, then it really does not matter to me. My wife can taste wines and tell me the year and vintage. I can taste the difference between wines when I taste them side-by-side, and certainly enjoy some more than others, especially after a few glasses, but my palette is nowhere near as refined as hers. In that case, assuming I was buying a bottle of wine for myself, it would likely make very little difference to give me the absolute highest end stuff and if asked to compare it to wine I had another day, Iâd likely have only a vague recollection, if any, that they were different. It could be that this is a similar case with respect to amplifiers, DACs and CD players, howeverâŠ
I am not so sure that this is true: If you mean that you cannot find uncoloured sound due to speakers and headphones, which all have measurable and substantial distortion, I donât think anyone could disagree. If you mean that it is difficult to measure the fidelity of the signal due to there being more at play than simple frequency curves, sure. If you mean that everything including whether the wires were installed by a virgin under moonlight is humanly audible, I have my doubts, but I assume this is not your position 
I am not sure, however, precisely what your position is, and most importantly what if any information you have that I lack.
Now, I know this may get me in trouble, but here goes (again, I am NOT trolling, and genuinely inviting you to correct me if I am wrong.) I had been convinced by the position that the audio salesman mentioned above was alluding to at the time, and which in its more precise form was stated by Peter Aczel as follows: âIn controlled double-blind listening tests, no one has ever (yes, ever!) heard a difference between two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat response, low distortion, and low noise, when operated at precisely matched levels (±0.1 dB) and not clipped. Of course, the larger your room and the less efficient your speakers, the more watts you need to avoid clipping.â
NOTE: this absolutely does not mean everything sounds the same regardless - not enough power, clipping, terrible implementation and other flaws common in lower end gear certainly changes things. LPs will certainly sound different (and not just because of the master, although I admit that this is likely to have been a large part the root cause of my response to the Mingus tune I mentioned previously. Certain exotic typologies, (e.g. tubes) and even certain cables can sound different precisely because they are designed to do so and they do so in a manner that is measurable. Similar things could be said of certain CD players and DACs I assume.
So, it is my belief (and I am not aware of any evidence to the contrary) that there a point where any distortion and artifacts introduced by amps/dacs/cd players that are competently designed and designed for neutrality is far below the level of human perception such that, for all intents of purposes, there is no difference between the signal being put in and the signal coming out except for amplification of that signal.
Now, it might be that I missed something, that this has been debunked, etc. It might be that you and/or some other people are âsuper hearersâ in the same way that my wife is a âsuper tasterâ when it comes to wines. But my question would be
(a) do you have any explanation or evidence for some factor that invalidates Aczelâs claim (e.g., something that, once the precise parameters above are met, is left out of account, but that is understood and measurable, although perhaps difficult to measure without specialized equipment that no audio reviewer would have access to?)
(b) if not, have/would be willing to undergo a double-blind test to test your hypothesis? And
(c) If not, then why not or why do you think such a test would be invalid.
Now, I know that even mentioning (b) is enough to get people banned on some forums, and I am not sure how it will be taken here. I cannot help but feel, however, that there would be no need to ban people who asked this question if it were not that deep down, people suspect that they have fooled themselves as I believe that I also fooled myself in the past. Note, I may be entirely wrong even in my own case, as there might have been some difference that was audible to others but which I didnât hear, or worse I might have fooled myself in the opposite direction due to buyers remorse/anxiety. But here is the thing - I love music and love when it is beautifully reproduced. I also, of course, like shiny new toys. What I donât like is people being put off this hobby and the sheer joy that comes from listening to music by (a) fraud and (b) the inability to admit that we might have been defrauded, thus leaving a cloud over the entire industry. Granted, maybe it is just that people feel the double-blind argument has been driven into the ground and that it serves only to harm the community. My worry, however, would be that if I am this confused and skeptical, then being unwilling to subject ourselves to questions does far more harm to the thing we cherish and want to share
That said, I think the objectivists are wrong about one major thing: I donât believe that perfect fidelity to the source signal is the be-all-end-all, especially when we are talking about recordings that (a) were mastered with technologies that would have introduced sound coloration, as then the audio engineer, even ideally (i.e., assuming that they were good at mixing, etc.,) would be âcorrectingâ the sound in a way that would not sound natural when reproduced with our âhigher fidelityâ sources, (b) regardless, were mastered with particular speakers/headphones and thus with a tonal balance that might not accord with the sources used to reproduce it, and (c) when the music was recorded not in a live venue, but instead individual instruments recorded in either a room that is either basically dampened to lifelessness, or has reflective surfaces that introduce weird time delays, then mixed by an engineer, sometimes badly, to give the illusion that it is being played on a stage.
TLDR:
At the end of the day, as far as I understand it, there are two major bottlenecks to producing genuinely lifelike sound - our speakers/headphones and the recording. Because of flaws at one, or more likely both, ends, it is sometimes useful to produce some alteration of sound in the middle in order to correct for both of these issues. If a specific tube amp would do that for me and give me the sense of realism and naturalness that I find missing in some of my favourite albums, count me in. Measuring âperfectlyâ could mean sounding terribly.
Nah donât worry about it, my posts were more to comment rather than start debate as well
Thatâs a pretty weird conflict to have selling hifi lol
Yeah absolutely, these differences become much more significant and sizable for those who are super invested into it, it will be worthwhile to some and not to others
Iâm moreso saying that anyone claiming âuncoloredâ or âwire with gainâ or things like that is just pure marketing and salesman talk, everything in the chain makes a difference to some extent, but some things in the chain matter much much more than others lol
To me that more shows a flawed methodology more than anything, but to each their own, this isnât the right place to really discuss that lol (since this still is in the 650 thread). If you feel that is true, no problem, personally I disagree but you sure as hell wonât get in trouble for that lol
Keep in mind a massive amount of things are measurable in audio, but we are still very far off from finding what actually matters in those measurements and if those measurements truly correlate to anything. Personally I donât think many of the current measurements provide anything worthwhile after a certain extent with electronics (basically as long as it doesnât measure like dogshit, itâs not going to tell you anything after that about how it will sound, again though this is my opinion with electronics). Imo people should be incorporating more psychological sciences, as it is equally important since this whole ordeal involves the brain and human perception
In measurements sure, in person no imo
No, because I am personally not interested in that claim since itâs been a different experience for me, Iâm just here to enjoy the ride and find what works best for me, trying to create tests and constantly fight about whatâs right and wrong in this hobby will just make it a miserable place to be, and you will end up being more misguided before you started lol. But again thatâs just my thoughts, make sure to take them as just that. Iâm not here to tell you how to live your live, and vice versa. Some end up biasing themselves more trying to look into things rather than just using their own hearing and experiences, as in the end, thatâs really all that matters, is what sounds the best to you. If things were as straightforward as described in some of these claims/tests, we wouldnât have to be having this conversation as there wouldnât be this much disagreement in this hobby lol
Sure, I level match and double blind myself fairly often for my own personal reasons. The difference is that I do very extended double blind tests, typically spending days with the components and taking notes, then swapping to device b, still unknowing which are which (I have someone else help me with this of course). Personally I think the biggest flaw with the current blind test methods are quick switching and things of that sort, as you really need very extended time to actually hear things and you just wonât get that if you constantly switch back and forth every minute or whatnot (exactly because itâs your brain, itâs not capable of parsing such rapid changes)
Just with disagreement at least from me, if you were being an asshole about it it could lead to a ban but you clearly arenât so no problems here lol
So far, typically the people that go about that path try and shove it down peopleâs throats and act like a know it all, hence why they get banned on other platforms. For most reasonable platforms, asking something like this isnât going to lead to a ban unless things get totally out of hand (or you have a platform that is highly biased one way or another)
The hobby is pretty much 50% music, 50% gear lol, if you donât have one or the other, the enjoyment drops off a cliff lol
Honestly I see the most put off by the hobby by a few things: 1, the overwhelming amount of conflicting information and opinions that some struggle to sort though, 2, the no real clear path on how to approach things and the realization that something that works for one person might not work for another and that there is no real âcorrectâ solution. And 3 that constantly moving up the ladder (or also constantly moving to the side) can be draining and finding a balance is difficult. But people will continue to learn and figure out things for themselves with time and experience
For sure. This hobby is about enjoyment. If you enjoy creating a system that portraits what you want to listen to in a specific way go for it, if you want something that aims to be as close to the source, go for it. If you want something that tries to be as realistic as possible, go for it, etc. I mean itâs somewhat unreasonable to try and objectify a hobby that is subjective at nature isnât it.
Itâs like trying to get âwhat the artist intendedâ which is also a bunch of nonsense
Pretty much. Studio gear is designed to add coloration 99% of the time, but itâs there because itâs considered desirable. Itâs also recorded or mixed for the main audience, and most of the time thatâs not going to be an audio enthusiast, so typically compromises are made that make it sound more enjoyable on lower end consumer systems that hurt fidelity for higher end setups, itâs a compromise. Itâs also a waste to try and make studio albums sound super realistic in the traditional sense because it wasnât recorded or produced in a realistic way in the first place lol. That doesnât mean you canât make them sound damn good though
I would personally extend that to the entire chain in the end, since again the chain is only as good as the weakest link, source gear can be just as important as the actual transducer (when you get to a very high level), as if one part of your chain canât convey one aspect, the rest of the system wonât be able to either.
Yep yep def agree with that
Also for now, if we want to continue this discussion further, letâs do it in PMâs to not take this thread about the hd650 off track anymore lol
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And that assumption is the crux of the issue.
Iâm not going to argue with you that amps and DACâs sound different even those with measurably inaudible distortion and flat frequency response, but IME they simply do.
If you disagree go ahead and proceed based on that assumption, things are a lot cheaper that way.
Measurements are simply incomplete for amps and DACâs, even if you go beyond the woefully inadequate set of measurements made by sites like ASR.
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Appreciate the response! As MON suggested, Iâll end here as not to derail the thread (perhaps this convo could be placed in a different forum by the mods?) and PM you.
After a half monthâs wait, finally, my 6XXâs arrived two days ago, and Iâma nuttinâ. This isnât my first rodeo on the Open Back world, but I returned the X2HR out of discomfort (before Dekoni ever released their Choice Series).
I must say, these play my tracklist very well. I was told these are some pretty warm cans, and warm indeed.
Music I listened to:
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Sold my 600âsâŠAfter a few months I bought a set of the 650âsâŠhad to see if they were really any better or different.
The 650âs are my low end /low cost gold standard for all things headphone related.
Having the TOTL cans, amps and dac, yes these are not at that level, but for the cost and design they are absolutely superbâŠ
The other day I put them on and connected to a Schiit Jot1 (and I have a jot 2) with the SE jack and low gainâŠplayed some random low pedal organ music and was floored at the bass (bass extension) that these 650s presentedâŠyes maybe not the most accurate etc but the freq response was indeed very very good do these dynamic driversâŠ
Alex
Hey All,
My 6XX finally arrived yesterday (actually, the deliverer wouldnât drop them off as I owed import fees and so I had to walk for to the post officeâ Totally worth it!) Having lived with the peakiness of my AKG K701 cans for the last few months, I was forever playing with eq to make them listenable, and found them incredibly fatiguing, especially with older material. These are far more relaxed and forgiving - just smooth like butter in comparison. Not as (artificially) wide, which I suspect is down to the weird tuning of the AKG, but that always led to far too much stereo separation and was especially disorienting on older tracks. Even my wife, who tolerates this hobby but has 0 interest, was impressed when she put them on, and similarly noted how much more pleasing they sound! Well worth the drop price, for sure. Iâve tried EQ (crinkle, etc.) as well, but actually prefer their out of the box tuning, which is just fun and brings a nice mid -forwardness and roundness to the sound.
Now to hear how I need bottlehead, lol!
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Out of curiosity, how are these headphones considered neutral? To me, they are like sitting down at a nice, warm fire in a wood cabin - cozy, not overly spacious by any stretch, rolled off treble that is still accurate, but a definite mid bump and 0 harshness⊠I can get why some people would find them less immediately exciting, and even call them veiled, but damn. They kinda sneak up on me and, before I know it, Iâm several songs in, just grooving - or at least that is my experienceâŠ
I wouldnât want them to be my only cans, but pour me a scotch after a hard day, throw these on, and I can just melt into the couch without a care in the goddamned world. Anyone have similar experiences?
Or are you thinking, 'Oh, wait until you hear x, âcus I had that experience and then heardâŠâ?
Or, âYou are listening to them on JDS element II, but wait untilâŠâ?
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If anyoneâs interested I just did a big comparison post of the 6XX vs. the Sundara over at headphones.com: Sennheiser HD 6xx vs. Hifiman Sundara SHOWDOWN REVIEW - General Headphone Discussion - The HEADPHONE Community
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Nice one, thanks for sharing. If u can, at some point try the HD6XX again on a good tube amp
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Which one would you recommend?
Ideally I would really skip the DarkVoice/Little Dot (only the budgetary, this brand has some high end tube amps) level of stuff and aim for something like the Bottlehead Crack with Speedball or sth equivalent (to name a few: Feliks Echo, Hagerman Tuba, Tor Audio Roger, Shortest Way SW51+), but I personally believe the Crack has the best synergy with the Senns at this price range
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Truth. Â
Thanks for the req, Iâll check it out!
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I think most people (including myself) consider them too warm to call neutral. The HD600 is closer to neutral.
Iâve got this cable from Lunashops. I love it.
I want to make sure I understand this. The Crack is an amp that you assemble yourself? Looking at the page, itâs not clear to me what exactly this involvesâis it mostly soldering wires?
I understand how some people might like this sort of thing, but I donât really understand why they donât sell a pre-assembled version and charge more money for it. If itâs as good as you say it is, thereâs surely people who might want it who donât feel comfortable assembling their own electronics.
You glue 4 pieces of wood together. Solder a bunch of stuff and screw a few things.
Their entire business model is DIY kits.
You can buy a built one used or professionally assembled. They range from $500 to $800.
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