TOPPING D90SE Fully Balanced DAC

[volikovvv]

@Resolution

I hope my reactions are helpful and I hope we can be friendly and actually have a constructive conversation.

Thank you for your opinion and impression!

Hi! I am actually on similar boat with you, this year i tried a lot of different dacs, like: Ares 2, Bifrost 2, Smsl M400, SMSL SU-9, cheaper Allo revolution, Aune X8, smsl M8, Little Dot dac 1, Topping E30, Schiit Modius… Currently i own the first revision of Topping D90 on AK4490 without MQA, from my point of view D90 provide the most balanced sound through all frequency range in comparison to all previous dacs. Ares was good but i think i missed some air with it, Birfrost was good, but the sound was colored, it was very noticable with my old music from 90’s and 80’s, but later i tried D90 from my friend and was very surprised, because it was actually the sound which i searched for! Actually nothing special, this dac does not have any outstanding sound sides that I could highlight, it just plays music in exactly the way that I drew myself in my imagination when I started to enter the topic of headphone audio. It sounds just ok, sad that i have to pay 700$ for dac that sounds just ok, but i tried a lot of cheaper dacs, and they can’t do that, they can’t provide balanced sound in terms of resolution, soundstage, detail retreival.

I’m very interested in new D90SE dac, im trying to find honest comparison, not from reviewers, but from people which compared both side by side in their homes. If new dac can provide 15-20% improvement overall from old version, i will give it a try:)

@WaveTheory

Have you heard Topping’s lower tier products like L30 or A50s? If so, how big of a step up is the 90 stack?

I tried L30 and A90, A30pro and many other amps. From my point of view A90 is better sounding unit in comparison to L30, it has more power, bigger soundstage, but… from my point of view A90 sounds boring and L30 amplifier sounds a little like catastrophe, from my point of view the sound of L30 is poor. In region under 200$ - Asgard 3 is the clear winner, yes it provide colored sound, but better get A3.
IMHO A30 pro is the best amplifier from Topping amplifier range. I shared my comparison of SA-1 and A30 pro amplifiers in A30 pro topic:

Topping A30pro (has potential)

Compared A30 pro vs Singxer SA-1 for single end headphone usage, i purchased both and compared them side by side with dt 1990 and 1770 250 ohm. I prefer A30 pro much better, because A30 is faster, cleaner, more punch and dynamic in bass region, much more power for se output, even with 1990 headphones i was able to max out volume on SA-1, on A30 pro the same volume level only with 45-50 percent. The only one thing SA-1 do better than A30 pro is the stage size, soundstage is larger, but in every o…

[Resolution]

@volikovvv

from my point of view D90 provide the most balanced sound through all frequency range in comparison to all previous dacs

Well said.

@volikovvv

Birfrost was good, but the sound was colored, it was very noticable

@volikovvv If I could add more hearts to your post I would.

[Kron]

Something sounding coloured isn’t inherently bad, just something that isn’t to your taste. Also just because something is neutral doesn’t mean that it’s not coloured, personally I want a bit of character to my source gear as it means I can build a synergy around my whole setup, although I am personally moving away from the bf2 to a higher tier portable solution.

It’s ok to prefer this dac over something like the bf2 or ares 2 etc, that’s your preference. It doesn’t make it any less valid to prefer the other two over this dac either.

[Resolution]

@Kron

I want a bit of character to my source gear

That’s the last thing I want. I expect to hear the sound as it was originally intended coming from my source gear. The headphone or IEM can be the final piece in the puzzle that can change things up.

If I might ask, what are you looking for in your source gear coloration? Do you prefer a permanent high pass filter on at all times that you can never turn off, control or edit?

Why not get a dead perfect, super technical DAC and EQ to your liking or buy a headset or IEM that is tuned to your preference? Then at least you’ll know how your headphones or IEMs really are supposed to sound. If you’re starting with something already colored, you’ll never be able to hear how your headphones/IEM really sound.

Your impressions of headphones/IEMs from that colored gear will also always tainted.

[volikovvv]

@Kron

It’s ok to prefer this dac over something like the bf2 or ares 2 etc, that’s your preference

Yes, sure, i just decided to share my own impressions:) And ask if somebody will compare old and new one, to share impressions

[Kron]

@Resolution

That’s the last thing I want. I expect to hear the sound as it was originally intended coming from my source gear. The headphone or IEM can be the final piece in the puzzle that can change things up.

Fair enough, I feel the same about headphones/IEMs as I like to maximise what I like about them.

@volikovvv

Yes, sure, i just decided to share my own impressions:) And ask if somebody will compare old and new one, to share impressions

Sorry didnt mean to make it sound like I was trying to discount your experience, I would also like to know what the differences are. One of the things I would hope that they have improved is the soundstage as from what I have heard, the D90 can be quite flat.

[Resolution]

@Kron

I would hope that they have improved is the soundstage

The soundstage on the D90SE is the largest most spatial and blackest I’ve heard on any gear I’ve listened to. I’m being forced to re-evaluate all of my IEMs because of it.

I did not hear the original D90 so I can’t compare. I preferred the SU-9 to the Bifrost 2 and now prefer the D90SE to both the SU-9 and Bifrost 2 especially for soundstage size and scale.

[Kron]

That’s interesting since I find the BF2 to have quite a wide soundstage, how does it compare in terms of height? As that is something that I love from my HeK (although I am selling up to go with more IEMs), the spatial reproduction is super nice.

[Resolution]

@Kron

That’s interesting since I find the BF2 to have quite a wide soundstage

To me, there was no competition especially in soundstage and detail VS the Bifrost 2. The Bifrost 2 was taken off my desk swiftly. It would still be around if I preferred it but unfortunately, it wasn’t close.

As I’m sure you already understand, I won’t go into soundstage shape and soundstage details/specifics since the specific headphone/IEM controls a lot of that. But if we share a specific headphone or IEM, I would be happy to go into depth into specifically how that transducer sounds in conjunction with the D90SE and A90 combo.

Again, I expect a DAC to reproduce the music and deliver it as precisely as possible. It was clear the Bifrost 2 did not give an accurate representation of the music when compared to my Pro Audio Universal Audio Apollo which is designed for audio creation and neutrality. The D90SE sounds clearer, more detailed and even more transparent than the Apollo which is exactly what I am after personally. I want to get as close to my music as possible and the D90SE is helping me get there better than anything I’ve experienced thus far.

[Kron]

@Resolution

As I’m sure you already understand, I won’t go into soundstage shape and soundstage details/specifics since the specific headphone/IEM controls a lot of that. But if we share a specific headphone or IEM, I would be happy to go into depth into specifically how that transducer sounds in conjunction with the D90SE and A90 combo.

I think that the only headphones/iems that we share are the FH3 and BL03, although I have never got the FH3 to sound good to me on any gear that I have tried

[LeDechaine]

@Resolution

I expect to hear the sound as it was originally intended

The problem is, there is no such thing as that. Unless you only listen to Chesky Records, all music, live and non-live, whatever, was “originally intended” to be mixed and mastered to sound good on everything, from shitty headphones to 20 000$ “colored” sound systems. Nothing is mixed and mastered to sound good on “neutral-sounding” gear only. (And no, nothing MQA will give you the music “as the artist intended” either – MQA is lossy, and doesn’t care if the DAC is “colorful” or “neutral” either. You’re better with DRM-free lossless files).

It just appears that you get the sound color you prefer with “neutral” and “analytical” Topping DACs. I’ve seen as much people “wowed” by analytical stuff than people “wowed” by the Denafrips Ares II, R2Rs, etc.

TL,DR: Audio is subjective, to each their own.

[Resolution]

@Kron

I think that the only headphones/iems that we share are the FH3 and BL03, although I have never got the FH3 to sound good to me on any gear that I have tried

Unfortunately and obviously, I can’t explain how soundstage sounds generally on a dac because the soundstage will sound different on every transducer I put on my head. I personally think it is quite silly when people are discussing the soundstage of a dac. The context has to be defined for any rational discussion, yet it usually never is.

[Resolution]

@LeDechaine

The problem is, there is no such thing as that.

That’s where the technical measurements come in to play. The objective is to get as close to “that” as possible. The job a DAC is supposed to do is convert digital audio to analog. The better a DAC can do this with better and better technical measurements etc less noise, the better the DAC is at its job. When did coloration or shaving off of frequencies ever become the job of the DAC? You know about eq?

@LeDechaine

It just appears that you get the sound color you prefer with “neutral” and “analytical” Topping DACs. I’ve seen as much people “wowed” by analytical stuff than people “wowed” by the Denafrips Ares II, R2Rs, etc.

Actually it’s not wow at all. It’s hearing the music as accurately represented as possible. For me, I know what neutral sounds like because of my pro gear experience. I’m looking for neutrality, not the warm fuzzies that makes my $1600.00 headphone sound like ear buds. But of course, to each their own.

[LeDechaine]

@Resolution

The job a DAC is supposed to do is convert digital audio to analog.

Yes, but the digital audio that is converted already has been “colored” and… messed up in a ton of ways just so it can sound good on anything. You never get the studio recording. You always get the mixed and mastered final result. The “messed up” and “colored” to sound good everywhere result. The “neutrality” is lost forever. The “accuracy” is lost forever. The “as the artist intended” is lost forever in the mix too, in favor of “this will sound as the artist intended pretty much everywhere if I get rid of the bass here and the treble there and the mids there and…”.

Obviously, detail is interesting to get. But “neutrality” will only ever give you an approximate representation of what the artist might have heard on studio monitors one day after the song was fucked up to sound good on every other speaker anyway. That is, if the artist actually heard it on studio monitors, because a lot of recording studios now also have a “hi-fi room”… possibly with “colorful” speakers and R2Rs, for everyone to hear the final result… Possibly at the exact place where the artist said “that’s it, that’s how I wanted it to sound like”. That will then be sent to your “neutral” and analytical DAC, where it therefore won’t sound “as the artist intended” at all.

@Resolution

The better a DAC can do this with better and better technical measurements etc less noise

CDs are 16bits, which means 96dB of information maximum. If you get a DAC with higher than 96dB SINAD, that’s it, you got all the information.

But above all, the Ares II has been reviewed by Amir from ASR, and is one of the few R2Rs with good measurements. Completely flat too. It just sounds different. A lot. Good measurements just prove it’s done well, nothing’s gone wrong in the process. But, it’s a different technology and you can hear it.

[Resolution]

@LeDechaine

You always get the mixed and mastered final result

But you won’t if your DAC is coloring the singal.

lol But… that is exactly what I desire. I want the mixed and mastered final result with nothing more or nothing less. I don’t think you understood me. I have been writing music and recording (trying to mix) and master for over 20 years. When I say I want to hear what the mixing and mastering engineers intended, that’s exactly what I mean. Not the original recording stems before mixing! lol

You’re completely glossing over the talent end expertise that goes into eq’ing, compressing mixing, etc all of the instruments into a fully integrated masterpiece that sounds amazing together. It’s an artform!

The last thing I want is any piece of my signal chain degrading any part of the final mixed/mastered recording. Understand? We’re not talking about original stems at all.

A little lesson on mixing for you… If you do not shave off say bass frequencies that are overlapping with the kick drum frequencies, you’ll end up with a final mix that has no punch and is flubby and lacking clarity. The mixing engineer uses techniques like eq, side chain compression and stereo panning in an effort to allow both to be heard clearly in the mix. It’s an art form and it’s extremely difficult since it’s subjective and different for every recording. Mixing, and as you put it… “messing up” the original individual recordings is necessary to make the final mix a masterpiece. I have huge amounts of respect for some of my favorite mixing engineers such as Chris Lord Alge and Jens Bogren. They “mess up” the stems real good.

@LeDechaine

But above all, the Ares II has been reviewed by Amir from ASR, and is one of the few R2Rs with good measurements. Completely flat too.

Awesome, as a good DAC should.

[mochimashu]

@LeDechaine

the Ares II has been reviewed by Amir from ASR, and is one of the few R2Rs with good measurements.

Does it measure better than Bifrost 2? It’s noticeably more coloured, though.

[Resolution]

@mochimashu

It’s noticeably more coloured, though.

More colored than the Bifrost 2?

BTW… You know what’s funny guys? I don’t care about DACs at all. I care about transducers. DACs should just do their job which is actually quite simple. Get the music into the amp as perfectly as possible. Game over.

[LeDechaine]

Looking at Amir’s measurements and the 96dB SINAD needed for CD-quality playback, you’ll see most 75$ DACs won’t even degrade the sound at all, and it’s quite interesting (a rare find) when a DAC is not ruler-flat from 0 to 20khz+.

@Resolution

But you won’t if your DAC is coloring the singal.

Ok, so you don’t care about what the musicians intended, you care about what the mixing engineers intended. How do you know Chris Lord Alge and Jens Bogren aren’t using DACs that “color” the sound and make it sound different than your Topping DAC? How do you know your Topping DAC doesn’t sound “black and white” compared to theirs? Or even, completely colorful compared to their possibly overly analytical studio equipment? There’s way too much parameters. Chipsets, condensators, power supplies, everything, in one DAC, to pretend “the Topping D90SE sounds like what Chris and Jens intended”.

Above the 96dB sinad it’s all personal preference imo. It’s just what you believe the engineers intended. I’ve heard a few people say X DACs sound way more lifelike and natural, though. Which would be more… what the musicians intended.

[Resolution]

@LeDechaine

Ok, so you don’t care about what the musicians intended, you care about what the mixing engineers intended.

Ha ha, you know the musicians are right there next to the mixing engineers right? lol! I guess you don’t.

@LeDechaine

How do you know your Topping DAC doesn’t sound “black and white” compared to theirs?

Because I’ve met Jens and been in his studio. Fascination Street. It was one of the highlights of my fucking life!

You can just stop now. This has gone into ridiculous territory. I don’t want to start getting rude so I’ll just stop now.

[mochimashu]

@Resolution

More colored than the Bifrost 2?

Yep, it’s warmer, thicker and has more bass impact, despite measuring better.

A side note: the Bifrost 2 is audibly less coloured than a Modius (which is also warmer), despite measuring worse.