So i’m looking for an additional set of headphones to compliment my 1990’s w/Dekoni elite velour. Very happy with the 1990’s but i feel im missing out on some mid detail with them.
Everything else I have is V/U-shaped and i love that sound.
Only other set outside of that are my AKG K712Pro - but they can sound a bit honky/shouty at times. I end up using them more to just listen to music, but they are fatiguing much quicker than the 1990’s / 770 / HD25.
Im a purist so I don’t like EQ’ing at-all, as i can’t and don’t want to replicate eq settings across everything i listen from or if im in other studios.
Tried the Neumann NDH20’s a while back, the sound signature was so odd to me. I tried to like/adjust to them but that 1-2k fulcrum dip made them absolutely useless for mixing for me. They just sounded like something was wrong and missing. Detail surpassed the 1990’s but couldn’t keep them just as a quick reference set.
Ideally looking for “natural” neutral sound, which i think from the list below it’s probably the R70X’s or Focal Clear.
Any other suggestions? I know everyone may say 650’s but I already know they are way too mid-forward for me, even though that’s in the general area of what im looking for.
Totally maxing out budget… and probably most i’d be ever willing to spend unless i win the lotto.
Focal Clear (Pro) - is there any difference between the Clear & Pro apart from the colour & accessories?
Dan Clark Aeon 2 Closed
Honestly I feel similarly, they had good potential but that tuning is definitely not something personally I would prefer for most studio work
I mean the r70x is similar to the 600 but with better extension and impact, also a bit wider stage, but a bit less organic sounding. I do think that could be a good thing to have along with a 1990 though
The sundara actually does a pretty decent job for studio work, but might take some getting used to in the way it presents time domain things, and while timbre is good it’s not the most organic.
The clear is pretty sweet for studio use if you have good source gear, an absolutely worthwhile investment if you are doing studio work seriously. There is no sonic difference between the pro and the regular, only different color and different cables for the most part
So personally the aeon 2 closed is a bit too v shaped for my preferences if I was going to use it for studio use, the aeon 2 open is a bit more linear and might be more my preference for something more neutral, but I will say they aren’t the most impressive when it comes to recreating space but other than that it would be pretty nice
You could also consider the lcd x, but I would assume you wouldn’t want to mess around with audeze reveal, and also the audeze mx4 would be up your alley but out of budget most likely
I should ask what is your current source gear and what type of material are you mixing and mastering?
Ever tried to get the Sony Japan-only headphones? It is even balanced. I found a video from a badly English speaking Singapourien who got a overpriced Sony balance cable (Edit in this case M1ST). The ATH open back is really neutral. I did not like the fact it looks like it could break just by coughing too hard. I think I tried the ad 700.
NDH20 is not good for mastering music to release it. It is more an overprice monitoring headphone for camera men and artists recording / live monitoring their own singing. The fact I am now sure that 100% Neumann changed the pads because it is not a flatly stretched pad and reduced bass and raised some treble is worrying. Seems like timbre changed to be better is just too unreliable when the pads degrade quickly. The sound is not the same between different NDH pairs.
I can bring some to your attention, but cannot speak upon their sound performance.
These headphones are marketed for studio use, but as some have brought up previously, headphones like the NDH20 aren’t ideal.
Regardless, here they are:
Ollo Audio S4X - 400 eur (big plus for this headphone is that every part is replacable, and you can replace it at home, and the replacement parts aren’t expensive)
Direct Sound EXTW37 Pro or Telefunken ElektroakustikTHP29 (manufactured by Direct Sound) - I personally own the EXTW37 Pro and they are some of the best sounding headphones, although the pads arent ideal : /
Phonon SMB-01L (yet to be release, I believe) - made by a Japanese company, and are marketed as studio-monitoring headphones. Highly underrated company, worth looking into!
Avantone Planar - planar magnetic headphones that have been released very recently
Hope this helps, or at least makes you aware of these models
@M0N Thanks for the detailed reply! Are you paid for this! Seems I see you in nearly every thread
Had a good look at Audeze alright and the LCD X was the only one I was considering in budget but the necessity for eq for the mids particularly put them firmly in the no pile.
Ah completley forgot to mention that…
Topping E30 / L30 is the current setup for now. Also Schiit Modi3 / Heresy (Topping is better for sure)
Adam A7’s are my speaker monitors for years now.
Mixing - jazz / guitar bands / electronic music (aphex style) and a mix of those, also straying into classical. Its quite wide ranging. Also listen to similar myself.
Mastering - Only a recent development but i’d like to delve into it further, quite satisfying. Working in the box only for that at the moment.
@KingForKings
Didn’t really think of the Sony M1ST, saw both of zeos’ reviews for them though, can’t remember the older version model now, will have a better look into them though.
@voja
Cool thanks for list. Never heard of S4X or EXTW37 Pro, THP29 seem more the one to look at from them though, wireless is a total no from my point of view for mix/master.
Phonon - Came very close to buying the SMB-02 on multiple occasions, definitley will check the SMB-01L
Will check the Avantone too cheers.
Think your all spot on in terms of the Neumann NDH-20 - They are superb “monitoring” headphones, totally not mixing or mastering.
Hmmmm, so personally I don’t think that will work well with a clear if you go that route, I think you could get away with swapping the l30 for something like a rupert Neve rnhp (excellent synergy there) or a lake people g111 (very solid pick as well imo), the l30 will do a lackluster job with the clear. The e30 would do fine or the time being but could be upgraded later. Honestly the rnhp also might address some of your qualms with the 1990, as it should enhance the midrange overall (and the rest of the headphone).
Also just wondering do the a pads not work well for you on there? I also wonder if the dekoni pads are causing a midrange issue?
The clears fit the bill very well here imo. If you wanted to stick with the budget option going for that r70x and keeping your 1990 and rotating would give you a good idea of what you might be after imo. For me I really like the clear as a workhorse mastering can (I pretty much only do mastering for non music related things) and once you get used to it it’s quite easy to work with. The Beyer’s you have now are pretty solid for mixing but for me they actually didn’t do it for mastering as much as the r70x would imo
Also I should mention, the focal elegia actually does work well for some mixing and mastering if needed, and it’s got a somewhat similar signature to the clear in some ways. It’s definitely not as technically capable as the clear, but it is significantly cheaper at around below 400 used now and also isn’t as picky source gear wise, so it could be a very reasonable buy. That being said it actually might not be the best indicator if you would like the clear as I know a few people who were unimpressed with the elegia and loved the clear, but it’s absolutely worth picking up if you get one for a good price as it’s a very nice entry into the focal lineup
A note on the og s4, it sounded semi neutral at lower volumes but once you turned them up it was a pretty apparent u shaped headphone (most likely designed for low volume mixing to compensate for equal loudness), it was solid but not super impressive to me. I haven’t heard the s4x yet, apparently different tuning but I don’t know if the technicalities are all that different
Phonon are serious about their shit, so I def recommend looking into them - but you might need to look out, because they are marketed as “monitoring” headphones.
I have the EXTW37 Pro and I like it a lot - ofc wireless is def not the way to go for studio use, so you are much better off with the Telefunken model, and it’s much cheaper too. The drivers they use are very capable, tbh one of the most enjoyable headphones I own.
Ollo gets a lot of criticism for their previous models, yet nobody is willing to speak up about the S4X. People always bring up the freq response for the previous models, but they have nothing to do with the S4X. Try and find smb who owns the S4X, and ask them about them.
Thanks for the further replies lots to think about and research…
Totally joking
So regarding DAC / AMPs i tend to totally go the technical route for researching. I think potentially a Topping D90 / A90 is what i would get on the higher end of things. For the moment thats a way off, and judging by DAC/AMP R&D i think in 6 months the something will beat the D90 / A90 for price and performance. Of course im talking totally from a technical point of view.
Not sure I could risk the chance on an RNHP considering the awful technical performances, that could totally change if I tested one, but being in Ireland is totally awful for that stuff…
In terms of the 1990 specifically, I found it much more balanced on the E30/L30 than the Schiit stack anyway.
I did alot of testing at the time when i got the dekoni’s and found them the most balanced overall, but I should really go back again and test with the A pads for sure. The B pads totally overwhelmed with bass from what I remember alright.
Cool, I think the Clears are potentially the long term aim if they work best with some higher-end amps anyway.
Im confident enough right now to mix with the 1990’s for sure and add another reference pair. Just totally obsessed like many here searching for that personalised audio perfection.
So think it’s between the R70X and a 2nd hand pair of Elegia’s (which have just been discontinued in other discussions…)
@voja
Yea, might be a while until the Phonon’s are actually out in the wild too, seem to get the idea they are highly influenced by Sony monitoring headphones like the CD900ST and the like… which are for sure “monitoring” headphones.
Yea doesn’t seem to be alot of info on the S4X outside of the website alright. The freq comparison graph they have their website very oddly laid out and hard to read really. They “look” U-shaped anyway, M0N saying similar. I think I need to avoid anymore V/U-shaped headphones for the time-being
Personally I really would not recommend going this route, you honestly might get better performance in some aspects from a jds atom amp and dac and the a90/d90 would be very marginal upgrade from that, your E30/L30 is already almost all the way there too. I just think the a90/d90 offers pretty bad value overall in comparison to other options in it’s price range
Ah that might be harder to get indeed, a lake people g111 would also be pretty great in that same range for studio work and fun
Yes for sure lol
Both very solid. The r70x would excel more at midrange timbre and organicness, whereas the elegia would be more neutral and clean, more resolution forward, also very different way of staging, very fast as well.
Keep in mind that I said this about the S4, the X is different
The matrix mixer is something that can be handled easily by a plugin for mixing/mastering but nice to have as an actual knob in front of you, not an essential must have for me.
Same would go for mono operation, although I actually use M/S alot more. A Phonitor 2 would be nice but can’t justify that cost right now.
Overall, I’ve gone around the houses on checking out amps at least… I think i went too far down the “measurements matter” rabbit hole. That many people saying the RNHP is that good cannot all be wrong!
Been properly having a look at Neve RNHP / Lake People G111 and SPL Phonitor One (thats new)
I mean the phonitor’s matrix feature is mainly just a special form of crossfeed (albeit a very well done one), there are a few like goodhertz canopener, toneboosters isone v3, waves nx is interesting but needs work. Also redline monitor I think is another one but can’t quite recall.
I will say that while the matrix on the phonitor 2 is cool and is more accurate than using the plugins imo, I personally don’t like the phonitors themselves from a sound perspective as I don’t find them all that spatially and dynamically impressive which bothers me. They are pretty dang neutral and have plenty of resolution to give, but things in the time domain somewhat bother me. Also timbre is fine but not great imo, and those things end up bothering me enough where the matrix doesn’t save it for me personally. I should also mention I haven’t heard the newest phonitor (the one)
For myself I really don’t find myself using crossfeed all to often but that’s also because I have speakers at my disposal so I would prob look into it more myself if I didn’t
Edit: BS2B is also an interesting plugin for crossfeed
@passenger10000 Yea Redline Monitor is the one that came to mind alright, also what @M0N said
Im also mixing with speakers too so I’m not particularly interested in that type of headphone processing.
Well that makes my mind up on the next amp choice then, LP G111. From reading so much here I think it’s the pick ahead of the RNHP.
Followed by a Soekris 1321 next year hopefully, or whatever update to the budget line they will have.
So you would be using the 1990 and are still deciding between the r70x and elegia right? While both amps are pretty nice, in this situation I prefer the rnhp a bit more mainly because it really helps out the midrange of the 1990, enhances detail overall while improving timbre, and also adds much more depth to the stage with a bit less width. For the r70x the rnhp really helps keep the r70x sounding organic where on some other amps it can sometimes sound overly dry imo. The g111 would give you more stage width with a bit less depth, similar resolution gains as the rnhp although not as good timbre performance and organicness, although it does have more bass grip and control than the rnhp (but personally with a 1990 and r70x I don’t find bass control lackluster on either amps). The elegia is honestly not that amp picky so either one works fairly well imo
The g111 + soekris does have pretty excellent synergy (as it does reduce the stage a bit but gives more depth, very fast, detailed and nuanced but can be a bit bright and also timbre doesn’t improve), with a rnhp I like a bifrost 2 (adds more body and thickness in the bass and adds a bit more stage width without affecting stage depth, keeps what I like about the rnhp unchanged for the most par) or perhaps an allo revolution dac with a shanti lps if you had to reduce the budget a bit which is very versatile in sound. I do like both amps equally, but for me it comes down to the situation and headphones used for synergy reasons, and personally I think the headphones you are after would be better suited by the rnhp (if you were going to use some planars (besides the lcd x) generally I do prefer the g111 over the rnhp but for most of the easier to drive dynamics the rnhp tends to be my preference)
Yep! Elegia’s if I can get a deal here on the forum. The better investment to sell-on if I don’t like them or upgrade to Clears
Wow ok, thanks for the further advice. I had convinced myself the G111 was the pick as “wider stage” had stuck in my head and overall a G111 + Soekris is easier/cheaper in the EU. In the grand scheme though not by much. I’ll update as things develop. Cheers
