IEM discussion thread (Part 1)

I know this is an old comment, but I came to love my Radius Deep Mounts on the Teas. They’re just perfect to my ears.

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The answer is no. Bring whatever IEMs you want and I’ll put them up against my Stealth, Expanse, and, Susvaras and even a few of my mid level headphones and you’ll agree.

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I’m embarrassed to admit I forgot I owned the radius deep mounts - I have to give those a try on some of the newer sets i have as well as teas - thank you for the reminder lol

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For myself, I define Detail as the fine nuances in music that are there, but which you do not necessarily hear all the time, so when you do hear them, they stand out to you.

That can be the specific way a drum gets hit, fingers on a guitar string or a piano key, the sound and characteristics of a specific instruments, subtle nuances in a voice… the list goes on and on. Those would be Microdetails to me.

The separation of different frequency bands and instruments, the positioning of the music around you, how close or far they are… those would be Macrodetails to me.

So my underlying verdict from personal experience is this:

IEMs are more detailed when it comes to Microdetails, while Headphones are better when it comes to Macrodetails.

Headphones like the HD800 just image on another level, and even cheaper ones like the HD560s are far better when it comes to Macrodetails than the best IEMs I have heard in that regard. Specifically imaging and overall spatial reproduction are great.

Yet even the best headphones I have heard (including high end cans like the Utopia, Stealth, Susvara etc.) I do not find as resolving in the Microdetails as equivalent high end IEM sets (like the Storm, U12t, Monarch Mk3 etc.).

So in short: it‘s complicated, and the answer isn’t as straightforward as simply „Headphones are better“ or „IEMs are better“.

I will also agree that the price to performance you get from budget IEMs is unbeatable. These days we have Sets under 100€ that are outstanding and provide much better sound and value than headphones in the same price bracket in my humble opinion.

The again, that is to be expected. The IEM market is advancing at a much faster pace than the headphone space, with far larger competition and more manufacturers than ever trying to one up each other.

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In my experience with nearly all IEM driver types and configurations (minus electrostatic, xems, and stuff like the MAD24 and Storm) vs the TOTL segment of planar headphones; I think the headphones have superior separation and texture, but TOTL IEMs generally compete at-or-above headphones in the $1~2k range. I do think TOTL IEM tuning can be a bit wacky though, so realistic timbre can be hit-or-miss (or partial to certain instruments/frequency ranges.)

As for actual comparisons, I think my AMT16 outresolves my LCD-XC(2021) for texture and instrument separation, but I get more space and stage on the latter which I find less fatiguing over long stretches with busy music.


I’ve tried putting my thoughts together for how IEMs, amongst themselves, rank regarding detail, but it’s super difficult. I do have some general observations, but my sample size isn’t that big:

  1. Single DDs can have a ton of clarity (tuning) and timbre, outperforming the budget-to-mid segments of hybrids and tribrids, but they naturally lose out instrument separation (picking out individual lines) at similar price points.
  2. Planars I find outcompete DDs for clarity and detail but they don’t have that visceral thump in the bass that feels right. Decay can be a bit too quick, somewhat unnatural sounding.
  3. Multi-BAs can actually have a lot of midbass (like the qdc 8SL), but will sound “rubbery” when elevated. I think they have some of the best instrument separation, though.
  4. AMTs are hyper-detailed and I find them best for everything minus sub-bass (upper-treble is intense but you can tinker to control that aspect.) Mostly better timbre than planars, but it doesn’t have that oomph down low that sub frequency DDs and some planars have. Multi-BAs (and by extension Tribrids+) come really close to the point where some of the TOTL configs might beat them, granted they’re in the ~$2k+ range.
  5. In a very-much-my-opinion-take, tribrids in general are really difficult to love since I have nitpicks with one aspect or another. I keep selling them off as a result. For these, I’ve always preferred the glide over the the bump and tuck, since the IEM can come off especially weird sounding going from one driver type to another.
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There’s also something to be said if absolute detail is even something that you’re looking for.

For example, live music vs studio monitoring. Studio monitoring you can catch out a lot of missed details by cutting out all the natural “imperfect” resonances and reflections in most live venues. What format do I get enjoyment more from? Live music.

It’s an argument I think a lot about when it comes to bass. Yes, you can get more accurate fast bass by cutting out those “slow” resonances. Do I want that? Not really. The physicality of bass is half the fun of music for me.

Challenge accepted. Put Anole VX against Suvarna in terms of instrument separation and especially electric guitar clarity. :stuck_out_tongue:

Side tangent, though, but I now agree with others in that open-back headphones have a really small use case as you’ll get better performance all-around in using studio monitors in a small room even without a subwoofer. And especially if you’re comparing $1,500 (total) or more studio monitors vs, say, $6,000 headphones those monitors will blow them away on every metric.

So on one hand you have studio monitors for at-home enjoyment and on the other hand IEMs for portable isolation. So where does that leave open-back headphones? Especially the ludicrously expensive open-back headphones that you wouldn’t feel comfortable taking them outside your home or even a specific room in your home??

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It leaves you being able to enjoy music without getting the cops called onto you from nosy apartment neightbours. :sweat_smile:

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I’ve owned the Anole VXs and they’re great at micro detail, but ask a listener to tell you how many bass drum strokes the drummer played in his last fill using the heel toe technique and they won’t be able to. Detail is more than just hearing singers take breaths or fingers slide on strings. That said, both headphones and IEMs have their place and the strengths making them better than the other for specific types of listening and I never meant to take exceptions to that.

If you’re serious about taking me up on the challenge I would be more than happy to see if we can arrange it. Basically my one or two most detailed headphones out of my TOTL rig and your one or two most detailed IEMs out of your best. We bring in some listeners aside from ourselves and have some fun with it. I’m not down to turn this into a scientific know-it-all contest that does nothing but turn people off to our hobby. Let me know.

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Yeah, you’ve got a point there but where I live your neighbor can get bent if it’s between 9am to 11pm.

Yeah, they’re weak on the bass frequencies but that’s why I mentioned electronic guitars, for instance. It’s easier to transcribe the tune of, especially multiple, electric guitars in a tech death passage on a single listen than any headphone will allow.

But I’m curious what your usage of your expensive open-back headphones is? Because, for myself, I realized I only ever used them in a single room connected to, of course, an expensive, non-portable, amp. So, once I realized this I just went and got monitors for nearly half the price and sold those headphones.

Oh, no, I get that. I’m not looking for an argument. I’m really wondering of expensive open-back headphones’ use cases. Like the above user said if you are REALLY constrained on noise production then you obviously can’t use speakers so that would go for people sharing flats and such as well.

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Actually, I bring headphones with my for downtime on tours with my band complete with a selection of headphones, IEMs, Amps, DACs, DAPs, and a Bluetooth DAC or two. I have absolutely no problem taking my headphones on the road.

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In a very bad spot since earbuds exists. :joy:

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I never understood earbuds. Whenever I tried them, they were uncomfortable in my ears. They don’t do bass well. They don’t isolate. They always seemed to combine the worse aspects of other headphone types to me. So I would be interested to hear why some people are so keen on them.

If you have some reccs, I‘d try them. It has been a while since I last tried earbuds.

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Which ones did you try?

Isolation is the one thing that all buds do not have though, same as open-back headphones.

Rikubuds :joy:

Saber 3 is my best (atm) bud imo.

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NiceHCK and 1More Buds if I remember right, although I do not remember the specific models anymore, been too long.

Was actually interested in them since I hear the praise, and also intrigued by the Moondrop Chaconne

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Nicehck has buds that use mx500, (fake) PK shells to Bell-shaped ones. 1More dunno.

If you had issues with fit with any of the nicehck ones (which are not too far from the usual shapes), avoid the chaconne thats gonna be a fit nightmare for you and its overpriced anyway…

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And well, I really rather not talk about other companies´ buds now that I have Rikubuds, but pretty much all chifi buds dont do sub-bass well at all and the ones that DO have some decent sub-bass (Smabat) suffer a lot in timbre and with a pretty big pinna peak.

Saber 3 is a different story as im sure @Ohmboy and others can tell you.

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Another factor/observance is that IEMs are always one-upped. They just seem to be almost disposable. Headphones become classics that endure for 40+ years. Case-in-point, among others, the Sony 7506 is still a study staple for monitoring. No IEM will likely have a similar and prestigious legacy.

Instrument designs (acoustic/electric) endure way beyond that…

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Well, tbf, hps afaik have been a thing for much longer than iems, since iems only really took off in popularity around the 2010´s iirc.

(although the MDR-CD900st is the more popular one over in japan over the 7506 which is more popular internationally since the CD900st is a Japan exclusive release.)

But there are SOME iems from that era that is still used, like the MDR-EX800st and EX1000. (also from Sony.)

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Oh that’s really cool! But that is DEFINITELY a niche use cases, haha! If you don’t mind me asking, what DAC/amps do you prefer to bring on the road with you? Oh and do you ever bring the full-size variety, e.g., Topping A90?

Fair enough. I don’t have too much experience with earbuds so I’ll defer to others on that front.

Ok, versus headphones, yeah I get that. You could buy like a headphone anywhere from $200 to $6000 and, yeah, your tech isn’t getting obsolete anytime soon, most probably. Whereas, yeah, on the IEM-front you have the aforementioned VX, Z1R and U12t still going strong 5 years later but anything that was under $1,000 even a couple years ago is obsolete for sure. So, yeah, this is actually a good point I hadn’t thought of. :+1:

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