But I keep wanting a wireless headset for gaming, even though Ive recently got a sundara.
However I keep reading wired->wireless, but it is lost on me since ive also constantly been reading gaming audio is mostly mastered at 16 bits and 44.1/48 khz.
So then excluding the minor latency 2.4 ghz latency offers, what exactly is missing here.
As in lets say u got a Audeze Penrose, GSP 670 or whatever premium priced wireless headphone/set you can buy and placed them against a proper headphone with a proper amp and dac.
Will you hear less with the wireless, as in some details will be missing, shorter lived or why would the wired set give you an upper hand competitively speaking(except latency).
Sort of id want to know if there is something inherently flawed with 2.4 wireless that prevents it from being competitive tier.
I sort of get why wired is better, at the time fail to see something that would give wired competitive advantage.
Like when it comes to clarity and detail in a situation it follows → being in a room and there are 4 enemies at 90 degrees, one walking on wood, one on metal, another on water, one jumping. Would the superior quality of the driver in detail, clarity and separation of a wired headphone make it easier for the user to identify correctly the action of each?
maybe back in the day yeah but of late its more in the 24 bit spectrum which is the standard default things such as windows is set in.
I will be frank that its a lot more than just “minor” in some cases… will get into that in just a sec
So theres a few things to cover on here to explain. Wireless tends to lose a lot of sound quality… a lot of clear clarity type traits you find in wired headphones and can in some cases cause a slight fuzz amongst the frequencies depending on the headphone. At the same time, in order to have an upper hand so to speak you also need the right sound signature traits alongside very little to no latency if possible. Since some headphones can be extremely bad for latency, looking at you mobius, this makes dealing with wireless complicated. Its not that you cannot use wireless you definitely can but as it stands theres more cons to them than pros when it comes to competitive fps. The most you can dial them back to is around… I believe 3-5 ms but in some cases those audible latencies can spike past 20 ms or worse and create audible lag which can screw a lot of things up in some fps where live action timing is everything.
You also have the issue where most, if not practically all of these “gaming headsets” do not go out of there way to create good sound qualities… or they amp up the bass so much that its just outright… bad. They never have a good enough signature in comparison to the headphones that make them ideal as the creators try to appeal to both audiences casual and competitive making it a rather large jumbled mess all the while they cut corners on parts such as drivers, pads, plastic, etc to keep cost low which in the long run just screws with sound quality and clarity as mentioned above.
Theres also the issue on the games themselves having their own demands… for example… I wouldnt ever recommend the penrose or anything for a game like tarkov… these wireless headsets are decent and all but they are pitiful in the case of soundstage or the sound around you and especially pitiful in the case of imaging and separation or rather how accurately that sound is placed and how well a headphone will separate sounds during heated moments.
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The thing is about wired is that
it has no latency issues so this isn’t a concern
you not getting degradation of sound quality and its true to its design
headphones are built with quality in mind while gaming headsets are build with bottom dollar in mind or rather “gamers will buy anything that looks good so heres some bs advertising”
your extremely limited if you choose wireless and at the moment the hardware involved is rather inferior currently
wired headphones tend to be built sturdier and a wireless headphone can have more issues that go wrong that can kill a headphone due to the extra circuitry in some cases like the orbit and mobius where the circuitry on button side of the headphone would constantly just go bad causing the headphone to die
This depends on the headphone but in most cases? absolutely.
However, let me give an example… say we have an open back wireless headphone with the ideal sound signature trait… in this regard you need to make sure if its low latency or not and how much latency it is… if its very low then this wouldn’t be an issue… after this it comes down to the nitty gritty of how is the sound quality… sound quality being screwed up is pretty common with wireless and is something that gets mentioned during reviews as well when it comes down to it… if the sound quality is alright then it comes strictly down to how does the headphone present sound, clarity, definition, separation, imaging, soundstage, are the highs raised, is the bass muddy…
the issue here is that pretty much every single wireless headset or headphone we have available to us right now doesn’t quite fit where we need it to. They consistently miss that margin
Penrose is probably the best case on the market for now for a gamer if you really want wireless… otherwise you will need a low latency blue tooth setup with a headphone modified for wireless or like hifiman deva or something… for example you can convert a beyer into being wireless if your techy enough by modding it to be a 3.5mm jack and using a 3.5mm blue tooth adapter connected to a low latency bluetooth amp/dac unit therefore making wired a moot point technically… but you still lose sound quality.
Since you already own a Sundara, if you were to pick up say a penrose you would absolutely notice a difference and a big one at that… Sundara is a very large soundstage bright headphone with recessive bass tones where the mids and highs are the focus point of the headphone… meanwhile penrose is a bassier, balanced yet darker sounding set of cans… its good for all around use but definitely no where near as good as sundara, maybe just maybe 25% the performance of a Sundara if I am being quite critical of the two. You can still use the wireless penrose… it will perform but it will depend on the game… penrose works fine in smaller fps titles… but anything large and the issues become just flat out glaring.
well thats a sad percentage. I had a razer nari essential, I actually still use today being more comfortable than the sundara(glasses) and its definitely evident that the quality of the sound is day and night. This is why I asked about something like Penrose or GSP 670, which seem to the some of the better ones not your generic $50 wireless gaming headset.
even 20 ms I would not consider being mhmhmm a significant disadvantage.
The only serious disadvantage I see is very limited headphones that are wireless and open back.
But on the matter of soundstage while the Sundara’s is larger, I can to the same extent place the distance of a sound with them shitty Razer Nari’s. +
Surprisingly where the only times I found soundstage of the sundara to be disgustingly useful is close range, within 1-30 meters, where I can place locations precisely based on sound. However on long range gunshots etc, between a mix of sound loudness, imaging and a bit of deduction I never had issues with the Razer Nari.
Also sorry that my posts will be mostly incoherent and I will between topics.
On the
Now here is where I start finding hard to articulate my thoughts. Clarity, detail, definition and separation…could this be well overstimulating for gaming? In music probably a clear downside since you want to hear absolutely everything with as much detail, clarity definition and separation. However in games, I would at least theorize that the overstimulating detail and clarity of some details that would make you fail to process the relevant ones.
and the real sad part for me on wireless is that you are paying as a customer whether you like it or not for the shitty software, simulated 7.1(which is utterly useless) and other commodity features like chatmix and etc.
Personally im thinking of gsp 670 because I keep missing phone calls and would also be nice for the bluetooth to kick in right in my headset.
From a comp perspective I fail to see where I would lose and be salty for using a wireless headset because I failed to hear a sound cue where on wired it wouldve been the easiest thing in the world not to miss.
I mean, if you want the maximum it can spike to such as the ridiculous mobius then your talking up to around 300 ms. I mention around 20 as thats using something like aptx LL for bluetooth. Note thats just the headphone latency as well… doesnt include net potential issues with lag, monitor lag, etc
Sundara hits pretty high despite its price as is so it makes sense a gaming headset like that wont hold up… gsp are a bit meh in my opinion and those gsp are a bit on the bassier side from my experience with them… penrose definitely had the better sound.
well all headphones have imaging to begin with and this depends on the game. Sundaras strengths arent so much imaging as much as verticality, sound stage, clarity, and overall quality of sound. If were talking just like call of duty or something like overwatch it really doesnt take much whatsoever from the headphone to be considered worth while. Its areas like this that make the penrose feasible… however, when you start bringing in games like Tarkov, Siege, some cases of Valorant, Battlefield, Apex, etc there are certain glaring issues such as apex and its requirement for good verticality placements…
Sundara is good at both very close and quite far due to natural airier type sound signature trait so this is not surprising. In terms of nari that one is decent, but like mentioned it also drastically depends on the game itself. Game engines create limitations. However, the more you play the more you tend to realize where some of these headsets fall short… for example some of the hyper x fall short pretty heavily when it comes to placing sounds diagonally and are pretty dreadful at vertical placements as they will get jumbled between in front and above or behind you.
Well this is why the particular signature is important… clarity is how clear things are coming through, separation is for heated gun battles… some headphones with lacking separation will sound like a garbled mess in larger fps with a lot of players this is noticeable in games like arma, planetside, etc where theres a ton of players all at once… warzone is another case of this, detail retrieval especially in the higher frequencies is what you need to pin down the fps sounds, definition is just extra really… nice to have… not particularly needed imo. Regardless, as long as the signature is in order to help you process and put the particular sounds you need forward then your fine… for example something like the hyperx flight over there is a wireless headset but its more of a W signature with massive amounts of bass… infact the bass is so forward it clouds a lot of placements… this is why Sundara is good because mids and highs, especially the highs, are quite forward and thats where most of your competitive fps sound frequencies are located.
well, chatmix I guess I can see? but things like 7.1 you can just use dolby atmos, hesuvi, or other programs that are either free or dirt cheap to emulate that… other methods you can get 7.1 on are like the Soundblaster g6 amp/dac unit which has a lot of gamer mix stuff while being able to push 600 ohm beyers… so there is other options of course. I think my biggest issue is that wireless is more of a niche area and I wish it was better honestly as I hate wires myself lol. Granted I do own the Hifiman Deva and I could probably connect this to a low latency aptx LL bluetooth unit for gaming but I just stick to what I know with the beyers which work superbly over, in most cases, any other headphone regardless of the fps title.
I mean, you already own a Sundara… if you want the wireless headset for alternative uses or just chilling I don’t see why not? A lot of us myself included own several headphones / headsets. I am not the biggest fan of Sennheisers but atleast I had found the 670 quite comfortable… though if I had to pick my top 3 currently for actual wireless headsets… that would be let me think… Penrose at the top, the Newer cooler master mh670 was shockingly pretty good as well, then itd have to be 670…
I suppose in this sense it depends on how, “hardcore” you want to be in a competitive sense you know? There are those players who absolutely want the very best experience and best equipment to get them to the top of the board each time… meanwhile others play more casually competitive and are okay with taking the lesser units as long as its comfortable and they can enjoy themselves. I think the headsets have their place… but I would never recommend someone one of them in most cases when there are so many headphones out there can be just as comfortable and useful… the only alternative to that is as you mentioned the extra options like taking calls and the like is rather convenient.
so even a mobo or a very weak dac/amp like the syba sonic, would pretty much blow wireless out of the water.
I also keep seeing that when it comes to amps, dynamic range comes into the conversation quite a bit. For example I use a fiio k5 pro for the sundara i am thinking, why? its just too powerful, for my desired loudness levels I barely need to crank it up.
As in i can plug the Sundaras into my b450 motherboard that has an alc898 chip and it does fine, maybe some minor lost of detail, but its barely any difference.
My question here is what exactly does an amp give you if you are going to listen to music at a reasonable volume 60-65db, if for example u take something hard to power like a AKG k712 or Beyer DT 600 ohm and plug into a shitty syba sonic thats rated i think 100mW @32 ohm ,62mW @ 100 ohm.
First thing you loose with an underpowered HP is mostly bass, cause the low frequencies need to move the drivers more
But for most HP 1w @ 50ohm should be more than enough, except if you start to eq them than I have heard amp clipping with unit’s that have 3w but that’s with hard boosted bass and really low notes
isnt 1w@50ohm a lot of power though?
So even with bad amps u get sound but some frequencies are going to suffer since you wont have enough current to make the driver move they way it needs to recreate the sound that is played.
Depends, nowadays all decent amps for a round 100 bucks have this much power
And if I say drives most HP i go to hd 600 or 250 Ohm beyers or planars that need a bit more amps
Of course 600 Ohm HP or really hungry planars like he 6 will need a good bit more but for those cans i would see they dedicated threads and see what is a class of amp that should be enough to get decent results
But like I said 1w should get you to hear what your HP can do even with light eq, but like always a better amp can get more out of many HP, like many say a phone like the hd 600 scale really well with better amps, so better dynamics and imagining some amps even get decent low end out of them
Lol yea or more… liquid spark and magni have quite alot of juice for units at $100 new even driving 600 ohms with headroom. Granted not the best sound though if scaling gets involved
to those wondering, yes I am still recovering from covid… its making it quite hard to do anything really… and yes I will be sitting down with the upcoming harmonicdyne poseidon as well as the two beyers coming out soon. Since zeus was such as hard player for casual gaming in my opinion the poseidon is a definite must try for me… and I am hoping the new beyers can capture what makes the tygr so fantastic and improve it further.
as for the update… I will be honest… been being lazy as shit on it lol. If I can kick this and sit back down on it… ill get the update posted.
Sorry, late reply, busy few days. Thank you again. I’ve ordered the TYGR, should hopefully be with me later this week. So I might use the weekend for a test-run. I’ve also thought about replacing the mixer with a Steinberg or Focusrite Audio Interface. Will report back my findings ASAP.
ok so keep going back and forth trying to get something for competitive gameplay.
After weeks, no! a few months of looking up audio. Here is what I got. Feel free to correct me.
General consensus is recessed bass and forward treble.
I totally get the bass, explosions will be heard and their boomy nature will obstruct other sounds from coming through clearly.
But what about that treble, after spending @2hours getting sound from cod/apex/counter strike through audacity and seeing where spikes happen in analyze plot spectrum, nothing interesting happens other than some flashbang stuff, weapons fire. So nothing really important past 1250 hz happening that you wouldn’t pickup anyway because its spiked beyond belief.
The treble I truly don’t understand, weapon fire is already too loud, way too loud in every game. I have never had issues hearing weapon fire going off, to be honest I find it more obstructing than bass blocking up.
well doesn’t have to be recessed as long as its closer to neutral its fine just not emphasized or deep and rumbling. In games such as siege some bass is also okay because of deep wooden flooring and things like it show up more in those frequencies instead… just helps you a bit in that particular regard.
the sound ranges from upper mids spectrum into the treble frequencies depending on what your looking for. Have never really sat and looked at that sort of plot myself honestly, just through thorough testing and research from trial and error through myself and listening to others doing the same testing… it is pretty common to raise the treble and upper mids in specific areas to enhance fps cues… Treble also highlights thing such as the detail retrieval too… so dont forget that
weapon fire you only really look for in much larger fps since you can place them… you dont really have that much issue with that particular sound in games like apex and counter strike… the main sounds you look for in those is things such as a reloading sound, footsteps, the breath of a sniper readying a shot, stuff of that sort provided the sound engine allows it of course…
to help with some of the eq if needed… a lot of the sounds of the treble are in the 4k region with 2k and 8k coming in second… the others are around 500-1k regions. Please do keep in mind… not all headphones are the same with how they can retrieve these sounds… regardless of EQ if your just doing this change with a gaming headset… the results are going to vary drastically compared to a good headphone such as a sennheiser or beyerdynamic…
Edit: I should also probably add… its not a good idea to boost the treble of a already bright headphone thats just uncomfortably piercing especially with gunfire…
Well true, I’ve looked at a limited sample and things id look for like footsteps @150-1000hz to 1500hz depending on game.
This goes back to treble again, with a headphone that has a boost in treble and the game audio engine which already boosts the gunfire, like a rumble from a grenade will take too much of your hearing space to hear anything else due to being way too loud.
Also not talking about gaming stuff, even though they are generally more forward in bass, gunfire happens a lot more than explosions, well generally.
How does increased treble add to detail retrieval though is the real question here.
Im looking at something like k702 and k712, they are similar. K702 is recommended for gaming due to the treble and less pronounced bass, on the other hand k712 has a bit more bass(nothing insane like gaming headphones) and less treble.
I sort also want to highlight again that I personally never had any issues in any game hearing gunfire, ever, silenced weapons also but they generate lower volume.
I am rather confused as to why were stuck on gunfire in particular… when your utilizing treble and the mid frequencies, gunfire while important is one of the loudest of all the sounds and the most common… if anything emphasis on this typically isn’t really needed to begin with as its loud and pretty blatant as to where its at as long as the headphone is capable of proper soundstage and imaging… The increase in mids and treble is to isolate and increase the capabilities of placing the more quiet subtle sounds such as the footstep… in many cases explosions(bass) or in some cases of gunfire(mostly unavoidable without specific eq depends on the headphone tho) will cloud out the smaller details you need to be hearing.
As for how treble add to detail retrieval and detail itself that requires quite a lengthy explaination as to how thats all attributed… I would recommend looking into that read yourself… as there is also those who will refer to headphones like Beyerdynamic as “overly detailed” or “fake” and “artificial” in detail due to the highly over emphasized treble… highly emphasized treble creates “more detail” than what there is in the headphone so to speak. However, this varies by person… as some people find the more balanced approach in sound signatures to work better for them usually in the usage of Sennheiser since depending on the person… higher treble can be piercing, far too loud, painful, annoying, etc
K702 is the more analytically designed one yes… but theres nothing wrong at all with using k712 or k7xx… they are all very identical to one another… its just k702 is better at analytically placing sounds and is the brighter one… it just has a better emphasis on the mids and highs and less on bass.
I would be surprised if you had issues hearing gunfire let alone placing it… they tend to be loud, echoing, and most common sound you hear in the fps…
The thing is about gunfire is that its going to be extremely hard to control… this takes practice… by amplifying the mids and highs you are also upping the gunshots as well since gunfire can cover any and all frequencys from low to high. Turning up the mids and highs too much makes everything too loud but having them too low creates a cloud that causes issues with placements of the subtle sounds… Explosions are mainly isolated in the bass so this is something we can control.
Edit: the other thing I forgot to mention(its late yea? lol) is that if your using a very intimate headphone on soundstage… all those sounds can be heard even louder… to very uncomfortable levels… you want some stage to space those sounds out it helps… quite a lot more than one would expect… though too much soundstage can be a demerit depending on the fps
