(update in progress) Falenkor's Competitive Headphone Write Up. Now with added Hardware explanations!

[Falenkor]

@hellbendert35

even 20 ms I would not consider being mhmhmm a significant disadvantage.

I mean, if you want the maximum it can spike to such as the ridiculous mobius then your talking up to around 300 ms. I mention around 20 as thats using something like aptx LL for bluetooth. Note thats just the headphone latency as well… doesnt include net potential issues with lag, monitor lag, etc

@hellbendert35

well thats a sad percentage. I had a razer nari essential, I actually still use today being more comfortable than the sundara(glasses) and its definitely evident that the quality of the sound is day and night. This is why I asked about something like Penrose or GSP 670, which seem to the some of the better ones not your generic $50 wireless gaming headset.

Sundara hits pretty high despite its price as is so it makes sense a gaming headset like that wont hold up… gsp are a bit meh in my opinion and those gsp are a bit on the bassier side from my experience with them… penrose definitely had the better sound.

@hellbendert35

I can to the same extent place the distance of a sound with them shitty Razer Nari’s

well all headphones have imaging to begin with and this depends on the game. Sundaras strengths arent so much imaging as much as verticality, sound stage, clarity, and overall quality of sound. If were talking just like call of duty or something like overwatch it really doesnt take much whatsoever from the headphone to be considered worth while. Its areas like this that make the penrose feasible… however, when you start bringing in games like Tarkov, Siege, some cases of Valorant, Battlefield, Apex, etc there are certain glaring issues such as apex and its requirement for good verticality placements…

@hellbendert35

Surprisingly where the only times I found soundstage of the sundara to be disgustingly useful is close range, within 1-30 meters, where I can place locations precisely based on sound. However on long range gunshots etc, between a mix of sound loudness, imaging and a bit of deduction I never had issues with the Razer Nari.

Sundara is good at both very close and quite far due to natural airier type sound signature trait so this is not surprising. In terms of nari that one is decent, but like mentioned it also drastically depends on the game itself. Game engines create limitations. However, the more you play the more you tend to realize where some of these headsets fall short… for example some of the hyper x fall short pretty heavily when it comes to placing sounds diagonally and are pretty dreadful at vertical placements as they will get jumbled between in front and above or behind you.

@hellbendert35

Now here is where I start finding hard to articulate my thoughts. Clarity, detail, definition and separation…could this be well overstimulating for gaming? In music probably a clear downside since you want to hear absolutely everything with as much detail, clarity definition and separation. However in games, I would at least theorize that the overstimulating detail and clarity of some details that would make you fail to process the relevant ones.

Well this is why the particular signature is important… clarity is how clear things are coming through, separation is for heated gun battles… some headphones with lacking separation will sound like a garbled mess in larger fps with a lot of players this is noticeable in games like arma, planetside, etc where theres a ton of players all at once… warzone is another case of this, detail retrieval especially in the higher frequencies is what you need to pin down the fps sounds, definition is just extra really… nice to have… not particularly needed imo. Regardless, as long as the signature is in order to help you process and put the particular sounds you need forward then your fine… for example something like the hyperx flight over there is a wireless headset but its more of a W signature with massive amounts of bass… infact the bass is so forward it clouds a lot of placements… this is why Sundara is good because mids and highs, especially the highs, are quite forward and thats where most of your competitive fps sound frequencies are located.

@hellbendert35

and the real sad part for me on wireless is that you are paying as a customer whether you like it or not for the shitty software, simulated 7.1(which is utterly useless) and other commodity features like chatmix and etc.

well, chatmix I guess I can see? but things like 7.1 you can just use dolby atmos, hesuvi, or other programs that are either free or dirt cheap to emulate that… other methods you can get 7.1 on are like the Soundblaster g6 amp/dac unit which has a lot of gamer mix stuff while being able to push 600 ohm beyers… so there is other options of course. I think my biggest issue is that wireless is more of a niche area and I wish it was better honestly as I hate wires myself lol. Granted I do own the Hifiman Deva and I could probably connect this to a low latency aptx LL bluetooth unit for gaming but I just stick to what I know with the beyers which work superbly over, in most cases, any other headphone regardless of the fps title.

@hellbendert35

Personally im thinking of gsp 670 because I keep missing phone calls and would also be nice for the bluetooth to kick in right in my headset.

I mean, you already own a Sundara… if you want the wireless headset for alternative uses or just chilling I don’t see why not? A lot of us myself included own several headphones / headsets. I am not the biggest fan of Sennheisers but atleast I had found the 670 quite comfortable… though if I had to pick my top 3 currently for actual wireless headsets… that would be let me think… Penrose at the top, the Newer cooler master mh670 was shockingly pretty good as well, then itd have to be 670…

@hellbendert35

From a comp perspective I fail to see where I would lose and be salty for using a wireless headset because I failed to hear a sound cue where on wired it wouldve been the easiest thing in the world not to miss.

I suppose in this sense it depends on how, “hardcore” you want to be in a competitive sense you know? There are those players who absolutely want the very best experience and best equipment to get them to the top of the board each time… meanwhile others play more casually competitive and are okay with taking the lesser units as long as its comfortable and they can enjoy themselves. I think the headsets have their place… but I would never recommend someone one of them in most cases when there are so many headphones out there can be just as comfortable and useful… the only alternative to that is as you mentioned the extra options like taking calls and the like is rather convenient.

[hellbendert35]

so even a mobo or a very weak dac/amp like the syba sonic, would pretty much blow wireless out of the water.

I also keep seeing that when it comes to amps, dynamic range comes into the conversation quite a bit. For example I use a fiio k5 pro for the sundara i am thinking, why? its just too powerful, for my desired loudness levels I barely need to crank it up.
As in i can plug the Sundaras into my b450 motherboard that has an alc898 chip and it does fine, maybe some minor lost of detail, but its barely any difference.

My question here is what exactly does an amp give you if you are going to listen to music at a reasonable volume 60-65db, if for example u take something hard to power like a AKG k712 or Beyer DT 600 ohm and plug into a shitty syba sonic thats rated i think 100mW @32 ohm ,62mW @ 100 ohm.

[DuerumBen]

First thing you loose with an underpowered HP is mostly bass, cause the low frequencies need to move the drivers more
But for most HP 1w @ 50ohm should be more than enough, except if you start to eq them than I have heard amp clipping with unit’s that have 3w but that’s with hard boosted bass and really low notes

[Falenkor]

@hellbendert35

Beyer DT 600 ohm and plug into a shitty syba sonic thats rated i think 100mW @32 ohm ,62mW @ 100 ohm.

No bass, signature being all over, low volume. Lots of issues in dynamics

[hellbendert35]

isnt 1w@50ohm a lot of power though?
So even with bad amps u get sound but some frequencies are going to suffer since you wont have enough current to make the driver move they way it needs to recreate the sound that is played.

[hellbendert35]

@Falenkor

No bass, signature being all over, low volume. Lots of issues in dynamics

this issue being present even at lower volumes?

[Falenkor]

Yep, infact lower volumes tend to be worse with improper power

[DuerumBen]

Depends, nowadays all decent amps for a round 100 bucks have this much power
And if I say drives most HP i go to hd 600 or 250 Ohm beyers or planars that need a bit more amps
Of course 600 Ohm HP or really hungry planars like he 6 will need a good bit more but for those cans i would see they dedicated threads and see what is a class of amp that should be enough to get decent results
But like I said 1w should get you to hear what your HP can do even with light eq, but like always a better amp can get more out of many HP, like many say a phone like the hd 600 scale really well with better amps, so better dynamics and imagining some amps even get decent low end out of them

[Falenkor]

@DuerumBen

Depends, nowadays all decent amps for a round 100 bucks have this much power

Lol yea or more… liquid spark and magni have quite alot of juice for units at $100 new even driving 600 ohms with headroom. Granted not the best sound though if scaling gets involved

[Falenkor]

to those wondering, yes I am still recovering from covid… its making it quite hard to do anything really… and yes I will be sitting down with the upcoming harmonicdyne poseidon as well as the two beyers coming out soon. Since zeus was such as hard player for casual gaming in my opinion the poseidon is a definite must try for me… and I am hoping the new beyers can capture what makes the tygr so fantastic and improve it further.

as for the update… I will be honest… been being lazy as shit on it lol. If I can kick this and sit back down on it… ill get the update posted.

[Regrump]

@Falenkor

From my experience with the tygr, I know very few people who actually didn’t enjoy the tygr… if anything those who are bigger fans of the mid frequencies are a bit on the fence with that particular headphone, which is understandable since tygr is a 990 clone thats been altered so its V shape signature causes the mids to be dialed back, that plus the fact its not as bright as the 990 so levels of clarity and detail may appear lacking in comparison. It’s definitely not bad… and damn sure not bad at all if you get it at a good price… overall its one of the very few headphones I will give a solid 10/10 due to the cheap price per performance only rivalled by its true variation the 990 but you need an amp for that one.

Sorry, late reply, busy few days. Thank you again. I’ve ordered the TYGR, should hopefully be with me later this week. So I might use the weekend for a test-run. I’ve also thought about replacing the mixer with a Steinberg or Focusrite Audio Interface. Will report back my findings ASAP.

[hellbendert35]

ok so keep going back and forth trying to get something for competitive gameplay.
After weeks, no! a few months of looking up audio. Here is what I got. Feel free to correct me.

General consensus is recessed bass and forward treble.
I totally get the bass, explosions will be heard and their boomy nature will obstruct other sounds from coming through clearly.
But what about that treble, after spending @2hours getting sound from cod/apex/counter strike through audacity and seeing where spikes happen in analyze plot spectrum, nothing interesting happens other than some flashbang stuff, weapons fire. So nothing really important past 1250 hz happening that you wouldn’t pickup anyway because its spiked beyond belief.
The treble I truly don’t understand, weapon fire is already too loud, way too loud in every game. I have never had issues hearing weapon fire going off, to be honest I find it more obstructing than bass blocking up.

I feel…defeated.

[Falenkor]

@hellbendert35

General consensus is recessed bass and forward treble.
I totally get the bass, explosions will be heard and their boomy nature will obstruct other sounds from coming through clearly.

well doesn’t have to be recessed as long as its closer to neutral its fine just not emphasized or deep and rumbling. In games such as siege some bass is also okay because of deep wooden flooring and things like it show up more in those frequencies instead… just helps you a bit in that particular regard.

@hellbendert35

But what about that treble, after spending @2hours getting sound from cod/apex/counter strike through audacity and seeing where spikes happen in analyze plot spectrum, nothing interesting happens other than some flashbang stuff, weapons fire. So nothing really important past 1250 hz happening that you wouldn’t pickup anyway because its spiked beyond belief.

the sound ranges from upper mids spectrum into the treble frequencies depending on what your looking for. Have never really sat and looked at that sort of plot myself honestly, just through thorough testing and research from trial and error through myself and listening to others doing the same testing… it is pretty common to raise the treble and upper mids in specific areas to enhance fps cues… Treble also highlights thing such as the detail retrieval too… so dont forget that

@hellbendert35

The treble I truly don’t understand, weapon fire is already too loud, way too loud in every game. I have never had issues hearing weapon fire going off, to be honest I find it more obstructing than bass blocking up.

weapon fire you only really look for in much larger fps since you can place them… you dont really have that much issue with that particular sound in games like apex and counter strike… the main sounds you look for in those is things such as a reloading sound, footsteps, the breath of a sniper readying a shot, stuff of that sort provided the sound engine allows it of course…

[Falenkor]

to help with some of the eq if needed… a lot of the sounds of the treble are in the 4k region with 2k and 8k coming in second… the others are around 500-1k regions. Please do keep in mind… not all headphones are the same with how they can retrieve these sounds… regardless of EQ if your just doing this change with a gaming headset… the results are going to vary drastically compared to a good headphone such as a sennheiser or beyerdynamic…

Edit: I should also probably add… its not a good idea to boost the treble of a already bright headphone thats just uncomfortably piercing especially with gunfire…

[hellbendert35]

@Falenkor

it is pretty common to raise the treble and upper mids in specific areas to enhance fps cues… Treble also highlights thing such as the detail retrieval too… so dont forget that

Well true, I’ve looked at a limited sample and things id look for like footsteps @150-1000hz to 1500hz depending on game.

@Falenkor

weapon fire you only really look for in much larger fps since you can place them… you dont really have that much issue with that particular sound in games like apex and counter strike

@Falenkor

Please do keep in mind… not all headphones are the same with how they can retrieve these sounds… regardless of EQ if your just doing this change with a gaming headset… the results are going to vary drastically compared to a good headphone such as a sennheiser or beyerdynamic…

Edit: I should also probably add… its not a good idea to boost the treble of a already bright headphone thats just uncomfortably piercing especially with gunfire…

This goes back to treble again, with a headphone that has a boost in treble and the game audio engine which already boosts the gunfire, like a rumble from a grenade will take too much of your hearing space to hear anything else due to being way too loud.
Also not talking about gaming stuff, even though they are generally more forward in bass, gunfire happens a lot more than explosions, well generally.

How does increased treble add to detail retrieval though is the real question here.
Im looking at something like k702 and k712, they are similar. K702 is recommended for gaming due to the treble and less pronounced bass, on the other hand k712 has a bit more bass(nothing insane like gaming headphones) and less treble.
I sort also want to highlight again that I personally never had any issues in any game hearing gunfire, ever, silenced weapons also but they generate lower volume.

[Falenkor]

I am rather confused as to why were stuck on gunfire in particular… when your utilizing treble and the mid frequencies, gunfire while important is one of the loudest of all the sounds and the most common… if anything emphasis on this typically isn’t really needed to begin with as its loud and pretty blatant as to where its at as long as the headphone is capable of proper soundstage and imaging… The increase in mids and treble is to isolate and increase the capabilities of placing the more quiet subtle sounds such as the footstep… in many cases explosions(bass) or in some cases of gunfire(mostly unavoidable without specific eq depends on the headphone tho) will cloud out the smaller details you need to be hearing.

As for how treble add to detail retrieval and detail itself that requires quite a lengthy explaination as to how thats all attributed… I would recommend looking into that read yourself… as there is also those who will refer to headphones like Beyerdynamic as “overly detailed” or “fake” and “artificial” in detail due to the highly over emphasized treble… highly emphasized treble creates “more detail” than what there is in the headphone so to speak. However, this varies by person… as some people find the more balanced approach in sound signatures to work better for them usually in the usage of Sennheiser since depending on the person… higher treble can be piercing, far too loud, painful, annoying, etc

K702 is the more analytically designed one yes… but theres nothing wrong at all with using k712 or k7xx… they are all very identical to one another… its just k702 is better at analytically placing sounds and is the brighter one… it just has a better emphasis on the mids and highs and less on bass.

I would be surprised if you had issues hearing gunfire let alone placing it… they tend to be loud, echoing, and most common sound you hear in the fps…

[Falenkor]

The thing is about gunfire is that its going to be extremely hard to control… this takes practice… by amplifying the mids and highs you are also upping the gunshots as well since gunfire can cover any and all frequencys from low to high. Turning up the mids and highs too much makes everything too loud but having them too low creates a cloud that causes issues with placements of the subtle sounds… Explosions are mainly isolated in the bass so this is something we can control.

Edit: the other thing I forgot to mention(its late yea? lol) is that if your using a very intimate headphone on soundstage… all those sounds can be heard even louder… to very uncomfortable levels… you want some stage to space those sounds out it helps… quite a lot more than one would expect… though too much soundstage can be a demerit depending on the fps

[hellbendert35]

@Falenkor

I would be surprised if you had issues hearing gunfire let alone placing it… they tend to be loud, echoing, and most common sound you hear in the fps…

quite the opposite though is what I’m trying to say, most gunshot sounds are placed in the treble frequency range and gunshots being loud already in most game engines.

So in the case of k712 vs k702. The k702 looking at graphs from rtings, crinacle etc. it seems that the bass is more recessed and treble is spikes harder while the k712 has a bit more bass and less treble, so the signature looks somewhat(not completely) but flatter nonetheless.

I know I know, I’m running in circles around this but judging by the graphs in most games sounds that are already too loud(gunshots) will be even louder with k702, while being more mellow with k712.

I will look into how more treble creates more detail.

[Falenkor]

To explain quickly though…

Explosions cloud subtle sounds such as footsteps… this is controllable through either EQ or recession of the low frequencies. Some sounds are in the lower frequency ranges so some bass is okay as long as its not rumbling

Gunfire: this covers any and all ranges based on the gun in question or if a vehicle is used as well. since the initial press of the gun hits the low then mid then high based on location its not fully possible to recess gunfire without extremely extensive Equalization based on the particular game… there should be EQ presets people have sat and created though for this very reason and quite a few of them do work… just keep in mind all headphones are different and you may need adjustment… there is no full way around gunfire being in the way of sounds… this is a skill that needs to be adapted to… as long as your comfortable with where its at and you can make use of the signature your fine

Footsteps, climbing, landing, breathing, etc other subtle sounds most… around I want to say 90% of all of these sounds are around the 4k region, bosting the 4k will also boost gunshots so youll have to find a happy medium if you want to EQ otherwise there are many headphones that do the job just fine without extensive EQ which is another reason I write up this guide

@hellbendert35

most gunshot sounds are placed in the treble frequency range

depends on the gun and game to be specific but yea… they cover all ranges but a lot of them can be in the treble ranges especially things like SMGs or those with the higher pitch firing… it can be dreadfully annoying varying on the person

@hellbendert35

So in the case of k712 vs k702. The k702 looking at graphs from rtings, crinacle etc. it seems that the bass is more recessed and treble is spikes harder while the k712 has a bit more bass and less treble, so the signature looks somewhat(not completely) but flatter nonetheless.

This is completely accurate, but not as drastic as the graphs make it seem. I have sat with both… Honestly, I appreciated the more comfortable signature of the k712 over the more analytical approach of the k702 but it depends on what your looking for really…

@hellbendert35

I know I know, I’m running in circles around this but judging by the graphs in most games sounds that are already too loud(gunshots) will be even louder with k702, while being more mellow with k712.

lol you sound like me when I first started learning all this… trust me I get it, its headache inducing and theres a absolute ton to read on all this… but I would still encourage looking into alot of it to get a better understanding… theres plenty of very long excerpts written by those who have done extensive studying with their own measurement rigs and the like… kinda takes the guess work out of it. If the treble is causing gunfire to be -too loud- then opt towards the k712… its not a bad headphone… it has imaging inaccuracies but its still damn nice and well rounded. You have to find what works for -you- as we all hear things very differently.

Do keep in mind that, depending on what your comparing the k702 to with those graphs… the K7 series there has a very very large soundstage to go with its sound signature… its not as blaring in the ears as a closed back or really any gaming headset…

Large soundstage and good imaging places those loud sounds further away and makes them more quiet(based on distance of course)… intimate soundstage(and closed back if you wanna get a bit more technicaly) shoves all that sound into your ear and forces your head into all that sound… good for music lovers… not the best for gamers

[hellbendert35]

@Falenkor

Footsteps, climbing, landing, breathing, etc other

but as mentioned previously varies from game to game, @warzone for footsteps only its like 150hz to 1000hz only. There’s a guy on YT that tested it, I saw the video around here as well, somewhere.

@Falenkor

Gunfire: this covers any and all ranges based on the gun in question or if a vehicle is used as well. since the initial press of the gun hits the low then mid then high based on location its not fully possible to recess gunfire without extremely extensive Equalization based on the particular game… there should be EQ presets people have sat and created though for this very reason and quite a few of them do work… just keep in mind all headphones are different and you may need adjustment… there is no full way around gunfire being in the way of sounds… this is a skill that needs to be adapted to… as long as your comfortable with where its at and you can make use of the signature your fine

True, haven’t thought about the gunfire hitting incrementally from low to high frequencies!
Since its slightly flatter wouldn’t the k712 be easier to equalize? APO eq is like insane compared to most gaming software that has very limited eq options.

@Falenkor

Do keep in mind that, depending on what your comparing the k702 to with those graphs… the K7 series there has a very very large soundstage to go with its sound signature… its not as blaring in the ears as a closed back or really any gaming headset…

Large soundstage and good imaging places those loud sounds further away and makes them more quiet(based on distance of course)… intimate soundstage(and closed back if you wanna get a bit more technicaly) shoves all that sound into your ear and forces your head into all that sound… good for music lovers… not the best for gamers

o yeah transitioning from your gaming headset to Sundara is amazing for soundstage, cant really say i had issues with imaging with “gaming” headset though.

@Falenkor

k712… its not a bad headphone… it has imaging inaccuracies

Are we talking a few degrees of inaccuracies or some more serious?

Also I realize, might’ve come out as an asshole for some points, don’t want to be, not trying to be one. Just trying to get to bottom of this :D.