I think there was a comment on this forum in the 660 thread where someone said I thought I could tell the difference between apples and oranges but someone told me I wasn’t doing double blind testing on them right, so I guess I don’t really. Like I don’t need a double blind test to know that my stereo system sounds better than my phone speaker; if the difference is clear enough you just don’t need a blind test to know. It just gets a little absurd. (I even saw a post on Reddit once where someone said they did a double blind test on some cables and did it properly and by the rules and still heard a clear difference, and half the comments were still like ‘you did something wrong’ etc. At some point it’s not a matter of evidence anymore but a matter a faith that cables and DACs and so on don’t matter at all or don’t do the things people say they do.)
I can hear a difference between delta-sigma DACs and multibit/R2R DACs and if you’re the one who’s challenging the truth of my statement maybe do a double blind test yourself, but I know what I hear.
I’m not saying everyone should run out and buy the most expensive DACs and cables and whatever else, go try it yourself and see whether the diminishing returns and whatnot make the trade-offs made sense to you. But at some point telling people they’re not hearing what they’re hearing is just kind of being a dick.
Anyway, here’s Resolve picking out different DACs in a blind test. But you shouldn’t need that to know there’s a difference between DACs when so many people say they’ve heard it.
I wish more YouTubers would do tests like that. The test resolve did is a bit sloppy tho and not double blind as other people in the comments said.
Golden sound once promised that he will do a proper double blind test with a silent input switcher that was build for him.
Instead of challenging other people’s experience, why not share yours and why you came to the conclusion you came to. Unless you’re worried others will chime in and poke holes in your methodology?
Differences exist. GREAT differences exist. It’s why people spend thousands upont thousands on a DAC. If you think that a SMSL Sanskrit is all you need, then fine why not just leave it at that instead of challenging everyone else?
And BTW, blind A/B testing with quick switching is the worst possible way to discern difference in DACs. Maybe why you’re unable to hear a difference.
It has been proven over and over again that quick switching is the best method to compare equipment. You can’t rely on your audio memory at all for comparisons.
And no I am not deaf either.
I don’t want to challenge anyone here.
I just wanted to know if those sonic differences were found in double blind tests.
Those ‚sighted tests‘ are just extremely unreliable and two perfectly measuring dacs (like the holo may and D90 for example) should sound identical.
But as we all know, real audiophiles don’t want to know about science and things like bias or placebo
If we’re also counting dongles I compared: Apple dongle, Fiio btr5, chord mojo, smsl Sanskrit, audioquest dragonfly, Fiio K5 Pro and aune X1s.
I did have other dacs in the past but nothing to compare it to at that time.
All comparisons I did were voltage matched.
One comparison I still remember was between the Dragonfly and Aune.
I always thought that the dragonfly has a bit more clarity and even some siblance in the treble but after I did a blind comparison all differences were gone.
That’s where I learned for the first time how important blind tests are.
Interesting comparison, that’s exactly what I’m going to do is upgrade from a D90 to a Holo Spring. If you have resolving enough headphones and amps you’ll hear a difference. Heck I hear a difference between my EL2 DAC and D90. Same chip, different implementation, the EL2 sounds more natural than the D90. I never would have found this out till I paired my Atriums with a burson 3xp.
I’m mostly using my Aeon Noire for comparisions nowadays but still can’t tell DACs apart.
That’s why I rather tend to agree with people from the audio engineering and science side of audio and not with those subjective reviewers who claim to ‘hear’ a difference in power cables and stuff like that.
If I get a DAC one day that proves me wrong I will change my mind but I have not encountered such a DAC so far
Yeah I won’t ever admit to hearing a difference in cables. That one I just can’t pick out and I buy them for the looks. I would also say most DACs under the $1k mark sound very similar. With that said it is very well documented/agreed upon that most people hear a difference going from a DS DAC to a bifrost or an ares 2. How do the audio science/engineers folks explain that?
Curious what amplifiers you use as well.
Currently using a Topping A30 Pro. It was the only reasonably priced amp that has a lot of power out of single ended. Some of my headphones can’t be used balanced so that was important to me.
Sound quality wise it’s audibly transparent and has enough power for my planars
Most audio engineers will tell you that ‘you didn’t test it properly’.
That’s at least my impression from people in similar threads on audioholics or asr
Hundreds of not thousands of people are incorrect?
I understand testing correctly but with the amount of people that say they can hear a difference, I would say that in it’s self is enough data to render any blind testing irrelevant for the most part.
Keep in mind I’m referring to two specific DACs not all DACs.
But the problem is that nobody is willing to invest time in those double blind tests. People just buy a new DACs or amp and expect it to sound different that they actually hear a difference.
There might be DACs that actually sound different, I possibly can’t know this.
I plan to visit the next audio show and test some DACs and amps with my Aeon Noires. I hope I’ll finally hear some DACs that will sound different
So if you don’t hear it for yourself then it’s can’t possibly be true unless the audio science folks say so?
I’ll leave it at data is data, either from a large cross section of people or a double blind test. There has to be a point where a humans ears/experience can count for something besides a double blind test being an absolute truth.
So a man of science such as yourself has come to the conclusion that all DACS sound the same because you tested a handful of entry level DACs?
Talk about bias and placebo.
Maybe as you grow in the hobby you’ll come back to this thread and laugh at what you used to think. Or better yet, don’t spend any more money because ignorance is bliss and to be honest, the sub $200 dollar DACs of today are good enough for many people and more than enough for most. They are however targeted at a specific price point, not for a specific sonic target other than SINAD cause for some reason that’s the only thing many look for as perceive quality. Such folly.
I see you replaced the power supply on your Sanskrit with a LPS, why did you do that and did you hear a difference when you did that? Moving through various levels of DACs you’re going to hear potentially as much difference as replacing a noisy switched ps with a decent LPS. That’s the reason I’m asking this question.
Your conclusion is wrong (it’s also incomplete and woefully “unsienctific” given the very limited extent of your test chain). I’m not saying you’re wrong because if you don’t hear a difference, you don’t hear a difference and that is a truth to you.
I answered your original post not for you but for others starting out in the hobby that they’d read your very limited comments with your very limited experience and give it any meaningful weight or consideration as they have own journey in the hobby. DACs matter, amps matter, cables matter, power supply matters, source matters, media matters. The further you go down the rabbit hole the more some of these things have an impact. Now whether that impact have value is a very personal decision that people will made based on their budget, desires or level of satisfaction. But don’t make the comments you’ve been making that are ignorant and empty of meaningful first hand reference by your own admission.
I appreciate your dilemma and position. I used to be a more measurement-focused audiophile who leaned on claims of “bias” and “placebo” to explain away those who heard differences. As I moved through my grad school training to become an actual scientist, I realized that I didn’t know nearly enough about the science to be as sure as I was. A dead giveaway was using the term “placebo” in an audio context. In fact, the term “placebo” has no documented or peer-reviewed uses outside of a clinical-medical setting. None. That was a hard realization because it meant I was using a thing I loved - science - without enough knowledge and in ways it was never supposed to be used. I also realized that one of the most critical data streams in the gathering and production of scientific knowledge is human observation. Even in the 21st century what we can see, hear, smell, touch, and taste (be REALLY careful how you use each of those lol) is foundational to scientific inquiry. And that’s doubly true when one of the operative realities is human perception. Now I’m at the point where I realize it’s less productive to debate if there are audible differences in some (honestly most) DACs, amps, cables, etc. and more productive to focus on what the differences are and what’s causing them.
I would also argue there have been numerous people who have done tests as blind as they can make them with the resources they have available (I’m one of them, multiple times) and heard differences. But, every time they speak they get shouted down, the goal posts get moved, etc.
It’s not only my experience. Look at forums like audioholics or ASR. There are people with a lot more experience than most of us and they still come to the same conclusion.
It’s okay to have different takes on choosing audio gear.
I didn’t force anyone to not buy expensive DACs. I just wanted to encourage people to actually do a blind test…
