That is somewhat correct, but I assume we can agree studio flat (flat line) does not sound realistically neutral? This is just me going off of my experience. For example, if I take the focal clear and eq it to studio flat, the timbre becomes less accurate imo. Stock it sounds better. I think there are some more things that goes into timbre, but for tone I would somewhat agree with what you say.
By studio flat do you mean headphones that measure and sound essentially identically to your studio monitors – and timbres sound accurate on the monitors but not on the headphones?
I mainly mean something that measures like a flat line, typically only achieved with eq
With studio monitors, the room plays a big role in the response so that would be a more complicated topic
Measuring in a flat line – I can only assume you mean that loosely or have some compensation curve in mind. A headphone FR curve that doesn’t have an ear amplification hump would sound horrid.
Sorry for the confusion yes there will be compensation
Not really super into the technical side of things lol. I use eq for headphones vary rarely (although I eq headphones and audio for studio all the time), so I really haven’t taken the time to fully understand graphs
From past posts I remember you use Sonarworks to EQ your Clears for studio use. Frankly, I think what you’re saying about them not being as timbrally accurate as stock is due to the SW profile, not any fundamental conflict between accurate tuning and accurate timbre.
A) Sonarworks profiles are made to match their house conception of what a flat sound is. B) Sonarworks profiles for a given model headphone are a compromise between the differing tunings of multiple units of the same model headphone. I’ve seen posts from Sonarworks showing graphs of just how much variance they have to deal with. And that means just how likely it is that any such profile will be accurate for your particular Clear (Pro) headphone.
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I sent in my clears to sonarworks so I have a specific profile
Yeah I figured it was their version of neutral, but it just worked the best for me compared to other options
Also I should really clarify that I was trying to say that there are some headphones that I would not say are neutral but have a pretty accurate timbre
I was going to post: “Hopefully that eliminates my point B. So back to point A” – then your second paragraph appeared, lol.
And I should have guessed that the cost of the custom profile would not have stood in the way of your getting that done.
You said eariler:
We both agree that at one point at least the Harman target had too much bass. This is because they were matching the frequency response of their reference speaker system in their reference testing room. The FR graph for that set-up is on-line, and it’s 'way over-done in the bass, like a strong low shelf filter was applied. (Presumably, this is because their reference system was designed for maximum consumer preference, not according to some abstract flatness principle.)
Sonarworks made their best stab at coming up with a reference FR. So did the guy at Rtings.com. Such attempts tend to fail, and IAC there are maybe a dozen such reference FR curves out there and they can’t all be right, lol,
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Yeah it’s just more what suits your workflow
Fundamentally though even if you believe that the goal is to reproduce what was intended during mastering (which I don’t agree with).
The person mastering didn’t have a perfectly flat frequency response, they don’t have neutral ears or a neutral preference, Microphones are imperfect, etc etc.
The goal is to enjoy the recordings.
There always seem to be two schools of thought in Hifi, flat response is the ideal, and I want something I like the sound of.
Valves amps have terrible FR curves if your looking for flat line.
Vynil had all sorts of issues.
I’ve always preferred both to Solid State amps and CD.
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Sometimes you don’t want to reproduce what was heard in the studio lol. If I have a client that wants to prioritize better sounding on airpods or cheaper earbuds of whatever consumer gear like mid-range soundbars or whatnot, they really don’t sound good on good systems but sound better than actually high quality masters (sometimes) (as I was told to so by the client). Like seriously a final master aimed mostly towards consumer gear will sound like ass on a very high end studio setup but sound better on what it was intended to play through
Personally I aim for a good balance, and that balance gets adjusted depending on the clients needs. I do try to optimize some projects for less than idea sound reproduction devices but I also try and reward those with a good setup
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I can see the logic.
I worked in Video games for a lot of years.
Back in the CRT days when doing console titles.
We had precision Sony reference monitors (CRT’s) on our desks, so we knew color was reproduced correctly.
We also had shitty TV’s on out desks so we could ensure the experience on an actual TV was good. And you always prefered the latter over the former.
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Yes, I have popular consumer models of speakers/headphones/earbuds to test on to get a wide range of what something sounds like. Generally consumer consumption is mainly on headphones and earbuds, so I have plenty of things to test with. I do have a few budget to mid-range soundbars and speakers as well
Yeah, I know this is an audiophile forum so it’s definitely not frowned upon to have 10, 20, 50 pairs of headphones for different “flavors” of music. To each their own, but that’s not what I want. Flat and neutral is the way to go if you want to have a somewhat accurate representation of what the artists actually sounded like in the studio or live. I say somewhat accurate, because, yes, there are “a dozen of reference FR curves” and we all got different ears… and different equipment… and studio owners test with low quality equipment too.
Still, Zeos, in the recent Neumann speakers video, said they were “perfect”, “flat and neutral”, so “dull and boring”… uh…? I mean, I get it, but, saying it like that is basically disrespectful to every musician and studio owner on earth, lol. “You’re all so dull and boring we need headphones with treble/mid/bass boost to enjoy your art!” 
I shop for my headphones and speakers looking at FR graphs. If there’s more than +5dB or -5dB somewhere in the FR graph, they’re eliminated. So I’m interested by, like, 10 headphones, max.
Obviously, there are exceptions. A somewhat accurate representation of the sound, and the soundstage, and the depth, and all the details, is the endgame for me. If it means a +5dB peak somewhere, so be it.
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Also agree too, it’s kinda a lost cause to chase a real to life experience, so just go with what gives you the most enjoyment. It really doesn’t matter if it’s not as accurate to other systems as long as you don’t really mind yourself.
So spatial accuracy is your goal. I will admit headphones that can pull it off correctly can be a real joy to listen to
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I’m also interested by Adam T5Vs. Good monitors, but with decent depth and soundstage, apparently.
Wouldn’t that come down to the what is neutral argument altogether? Also I think something can be neutral and enjoyable, but the point of monitors like those are more to easily find flaws and correct errors and make adjustments, not really enjoy music
Oh, maybe he meant these were perfect for their job, which is, excessive detail, showing everything bad about every recording. I would not want that for my endgame either. I want natural detail, not hyper, boosted detail.