Please excuse my lack of knowledge, especially with the terminology, but I’ll try to describe what I need the best I can so maybe somebody can point me in the right direction here. Deep diving into the forums just led to more questions to be honest.
I currently have a Sennheiser HD 598 that I’ve been using for almost 10 years now. What I love about it so far:
Clean, bright (?) sound,
Exceptionally comfortable,
Sturdy (10 years!). Only had to change the pads,
No fatigue while listening (I use it almost 12 hours a day, literally)
One day I was listening to some EDM/metal and closed the sides of the headphone with my hands and pushed it against my ears by mistake (lol!) and I was like, wow, that bass is thick! Later, I’ve realized that I get a similar effect with new in-ear headphones.
I did some research and decided to try a V-shaped or warm, closed-back can, so I bought a Monoprice Modern Retro. I can understand that maybe I shouldn’t expect a nice sound at that price point, but it was very muddy (?), without any detail and it was disturbing for long sessions. Bass was maybe close to what I needed but it wasn’t clear (?). Also it was very uncomfortable compared to HD 598 and the head band broke within 2 weeks.
I need a headphone to complement my HD 598. I guess something with more bass for EDM/Metal without compromising too much of comfort/durability/sound clarity. Budget is up to $600.
What I’m looking at right now:
AKG K712
Philips Fidelio X2HR
Sennheiser HD 650
DT 177X
Focal Elegia
HiFiMan HE-500 (heard about this but couldn’t find anywhere)
HiFiMan Sundara (I think this is not going to be enough bass for me?)
Questions:
Did I at least get the list right?
Do I need a V-shaped/warm can? (either or?). Or maybe a W shape (is that even a thing)?
Do I really need a closed-back? Can I get a quality thick bass with a open-back?
Where I can find the freq. response of all the headphones? (I’ve found a “rating” site, but it doesn’t have it for all the headphones)
Do I get a wow factor if I upgrade to planar/electro stat?
Do you have any recommendations based on what I described?
Sorry for throwing all these questions at once and thanks for the help!
Forgive my inability to give detailed answers because I’m relatively new to this myself, but have you considered something from modhouse? It’s a crazy long wait (mine should be arriving in January) and you’ll need an amp, but I had some somewhat similar desires and went with his T60 version. I decided that 12-14 week wait times meant I could easily sell them if I thought they were disappointing. A search for “Argons” should bring up some opinions from people who already have theirs. I believe the T50 is the bassier of the two.
I haven’t owned a 177x, but Beyerdynamics have great build quality, decent comfort, and the FR graph on Drop makes it look similar to a DT770 with less extreme treble, and I really enjoyed the bass on my 770.
Thanks @notsure. I don’t mind getting an amp and I looked at MK3s but that lead time is brutal! I was hoping to get my hands on a new pair while there are still Black Friday sales going on. If I can’t really decide on any other I’ll definitely consider one regardless of the lead time. I haven’t look into T50/T60 yet but will check them out too.
Insomnia post: The folks in the Elegiathread seem to have mostly positive opinions. It’s discontinued but their are two (I think) still on Amazon in the $550ish ballpark. I’m tempted to snatch one as a chill jazz work set, but I find something about it unappealing in a way that’s hard to articulate.
I don’t know if that’s best for you but It feels wrong not to share the info.
Agreed. I wasn’t aware that it was discontinued either, so thanks for the heads up. Frankly, I haven’t heard about Focal/Elegia before this forum. People in Elegia thread seem to EQ it or doing pad swaps to get it right for them so I’m not sure if the sound out of the box will be appropriate for me either. And the price is much higher compared to K712/HD650/X2HR.
I owned the elegia and they were on the more neutral side a v-shape (if you can call them that). They’re plenty detailed but not the most exciting/bass centric headphones, though a great value considering you can get them used for <500.
That being said, I’d look at some of the new Bayer Dynamic closed backs as they are on the cheaper end and have good bass.
K712 is not so much bass elevated as mids recessed.
X2HR comes close but you might be disappointed with lack of sub-bass.
HD 650 has less bass than the HD598 and insufficient brightness.
If the DT17XX is tuned anything like the DT 1770, it’s total lack of upper mids will make it sound muddy.
Elegia is not that bass emphasized.
HE-500 is long out of production.
Sundara has excellent bass quality but less bass quantity than your HD598. Plus, there’s always the gamble with at least the lower tier Hifimans of driver failure.
W-shape is indeed a thing, but doesn’t match what you say you want.
You can absolutely get bass quality from an open-back, but for technical reasons it seems to be nearly impossible to get a generous helping of low-bass and sub-bass quantity from an open-back design.
Rtings.com does a whole suite of measurements that no other site does. If you can get by with just frequency response, the best single place I can direct you to is Headphone Database. For your needs set the Target response option to Harman 2018. A site with even more headphones measured is Crinacle.com, but sadly Crinacle demands payment to use the Harman target and many other features. Not a show-stopper once you become familiar with the Harman target. There are many other sites with less content. If there’s a headphone you can’t find the graph for let me know.
Planars, and I believe also e-stats, excel at bass quality/detail but tend to not have bass quantity. I finally broke down and bought a planar to hear for myself whether they have some special goodness compared to the usual dynamic driver. Just a sample of one, but FWIW when I EQ them to the same frequency response, the remaining difference is pretty subtle.
I’m a neutral/accurate freak, so have next to no feel for the bass elevated microcosm.
Let’s take a different tack. Do you have access to even a simple EQ app? We can use it to get a better idea of what range of frequency responses you’ll be happy with. From there you can ask the forum for feedback on specific headphones that at least have an FR in the right ballpark.
@MaynardGK, thanks for the detailed answer! Those links to freq. responses are exactly what I’ve been looking for.
I’ll definitely take your advice on the EQ. I have EQ APO suggested in this forum, but didn’t have the time to try it out yet. I’ll definitely try to EQ my HD 598 and see which freq. bands get me closer to what I need.
AKG K712
I have no personal experience with these, though you should know these are open. I’ve hear they’re very spacious and their frequency response graph definitly seems warm
Philips Fidelio X2HR
You’ll hear great things about these but I personally do not like them, there’s somethign in the trebble that hits me in the wrong spot in certain songs and I just… nah. Also, open
Sennheiser HD 650
Not bassy, definitly warm. Again open. These are very close and ‘narrow’. So If you like that kinda smaller soundstage these are great. I love these for vocals especially
DT 177X
I don’t have access to these (europe) but heard the greatest things about these and I think these are about as close as it gets to what you want! Closed back, high quality and bass!
Focal Elegia
Less warm, less bassy, but also amazing set of cans! Closed back, decent build quality, but more of a neutral-warm tone
HiFiMan Sundara (I think this is not going to be enough bass for me?)
Alright. I will try to keep this short because I’m an absolute fanboy
The Sundara are GREAT (post 2020). The build quality is decent, and probably the worst part about these. But if you take care of your stuff (I’m sloppy so just a little bit of care taking will be enough ) these should last. The sound is amazing for the price. They can compete with the much more expensive headphones (like the Eligia) easily. They’re neutral. Not bassy, not warm. They’re open as well… So litereally NOT what you’re looking for judging by your post hahaha. Bass is excellent, tight and that planar slam just mh! Everyone should have a pair of these if they have the means to power them
Did I at least get the list right?
Most of them are open… so no? Not according to your own requirments… But this is a list of damn good cans!
Do I need a V-shaped/warm can? (either or?). Or maybe a W shape (is that even a thing)?
I think you’d be looking for warm. Warm is nice ofr long listening sessions and vibes pretty good with electronic music styles
Do I really need a closed-back? Can I get a quality thick bass with a open-back?
Nope. Opens can give you the same bass or even more so, and, imo, often have less of that ‘mud’. Look at the Sundara as an example. They’re open and neutral, but put on a bass heavy song and it will produce all of that bass that the artist put in and do it tight and clean. I love open cans but you should know if your environment allows it.
Where I can find the freq. response of all the headphones? (I’ve found a “rating” site, but it doesn’t have it for all the headphones)
Google Rting has a lot indeed, crinicle also has a lot. There’s not one databse with them all unfortunately
Do I get a wow factor if I upgrade to planar/electro stat?
Yes…? Sorta? Define ‘wow’. I went from some lower end sennys to the Sundara and I’m wow’ed. But maybe I’m easily wow’ed
*Do you have any recommendations based on what I described?
Meze 99 classic. These are closed back and very warm.
I’m using these to warm up my Sundara’s a bit and find it excellent. Good neutral headphones (Sundara, HD598, HD600,…) usually respond pretty weel to mild EQ
Thanks @toruc_macta! Yes, the list is almost all open-back as I didn’t want to compromise too much of what HD 598 has to offer for the sake of getting more bass. I’m probably going to be disappointed if I get a bass heavy headphone and the sound is muddy.
I’ve heard a lot of great things about Sundara. It could be a great upgrade for my HD 598, or maybe even an Ananda in the future.
Noted! Sundara is definitely on my short list of cans and I will probably continue my open-back neutral/natural sound journey for a long time. I’ve been initially thinking about upgrading to another Sennheiser, maybe to 800s, but after digging around, Sundara might very well be a nice upgrade for my HD 598. Arya though is way out of my price range, today, tomorrow and possibly in the future too (as well as HD 800s)
Hm for closed v shaped HP i could recommend the meze classic or neo and for open maybe something like the Zeus or the sigva Phoenix
For the cans on your list the x2hr it has the bass but I would call it a bit muddy
Sundaram has good bass but the quantity is lacking for your requirements
The dt 177x could be a good fit cause drop has tamed the Beyer treble a good bit
Or you could also try something like a zen DAC and try it’s sweet bass boost
What are you currently running your headphones off of? What do you play music from and through? I think folks are reiterating closed-backs in the responses, but I’m unsure if they’re necessary.
A lot of planar in this range will offer flatter response into the low-end of sub-bass but with less upper-bass bloom. Very EQ’able though, is EQ an option for your usage?
I was thinking about the classic Beyer family (770/880/990) as perhaps offering a more V-shaped signature than what you presently have without going into left field. Good value, comfort, durability. Powering them can be all over the map, obviously. Modern Retro, definitely a CHEAP bass cannon - going pretty far afield from your preferences. I worry that something like the X2HR could deliver a little of that feeling.
Nothing fancy, just using my PC, and whatever the motherboard offers. I don’t mind getting an AMP/DAC though if it is needed or going to provide me what I expect.
I took @MaynardGK’s advice and played with some simple EQ and it was pretty close to what I need, though my HD 598 starts rattling with high bass music. It is now much better than what I though it would be. To my surprise, cranking up the treble really opened up the sound for me.
I’ll check out the forum regarding 770/880/990. I remember people mentioning 880 during my research but I wasn’t sure if I can afford driving a 600 ohm can (due to my lack of knowledge of amps maybe) or if its variations with less impedance worth it. I’ll definitely check them out.
That’s some significant v-shaped, EQ’ing. I’d say you’re not treble sensitive.
I do believe that the amp needs are a bit overstated on the 600 ohm cans.
People are happy with them on Monoprice’s Liquid Spark or Schiit Magni.
However, if you have $249 available, I’d be happier running them from an Asgard 3. Which I do! I do know there is a backorder/production time issue there.
Zeus would run from anything, but might lack some sizzle for you.
Has T50RP series been discussed in this thread?
(as well as HD 800s)
