Ok, so still, unbalanced cable Zen can + zen dac wouldnāt be enough for the 600ohm? But zen can and unbalanced 250ohm headphones will be enough?
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For the 250 Ohm version you would be fine, yes. 600 ones I donāt think so. Heard them on a iFi iDSD micro black label (around 300mW) with volume near max, wasnāt impressed. If that is your goal save up for the L50.
Edit: iFi has a power calculator which says 600 Ohm would be still okay-ish but it also says the same about the 250 version on the Zen DAC soā¦
If you should decide to get the CAN maybe you can order some open box 600 Ohm and just give it a shot.
I always point to my experience on Magni 3 when I could actually max the volume pot in comfort. Iād be seeking north of 200mW at 600 ohm
Just as another point of reference, I use the Schiit Asgard 3 with my 880ās.
300mw and vol pot set at 2 to 3 Oāclock. I wouldnāt want any less for them.
PS love it!
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My 2 cents hereā¦
Beyerdynamic recommends an amp that can output 100mW at 600 ohm with a 100 ohm output impedance. For whatever reason, they think thatās the best match for their cans. Thatās what their headphone amps are rated for. I donāt necessarily agree. You donāt need that high of output impedance, but the 100mW is probably a good guide. The challenge most budget amps will face is that they may deliver 100 mW into 600 ohms at 1KHz, but they donāt have the power delivery ability to deliver 100mW at 100 Hz and 10000Hz, among others, all at the same time.
Youāre in an unfortunate position. The hi-impedance (hi-Z) Senns and Beyers are easy to obtain worldwide but sufficient budget amps for them are not. In the EU, your reasonably priced options are limited. I found the Zen CAN to struggle with bass control for hi-Z headphones, and that was from the balanced output. I have taken heat for that but I stick by it. As iFiās amp calculator claims they will get plenty loud, but the higher the impedance gets, the more noticeable the lack of control in the bass becomes. See my above comment about power delivery. The Zen CAN has a 5v-2.4A power input, which just doesnāt cut it over the entire frequency range. Your other easily-obtainable amp options in that price range are likely Topping amps - and justā¦no (IMO). Those have their own problems in power delivery. I found the L30 and A50s to make Beyer headphones go sharp as hell in the trebleā¦way moreso than other amps in the price range, and that only scratches the surface of their issues.
My best advice is pinch your pennies and save until you can land a Lake People G103s at a price youāre comfortable with. Thatās a German company and should be relatively easy to get ahold of in the EU. It will also have plenty of power to handle the hi-Z cans, even with the Zen bass boost engaged.
Good luck! Please let us know how it goes.
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I am able to buy Atom Dac & Amp for ~300USD (including everything), here in EU. It may be 90USD more than what you pay for it but itās still a viable option for the 600ohm right? The Atom lines are probably the most easily accessible/budget friendly, of all the options Iāve found. The other setup, maybe Iāll pair my Zen Dac and buy a used Zen Can for 100USD, and get the 250ohm DT 880. Iāve seen videos and people claiming that itās not big of a difference (and Iāve also heard the opposite lol).
Lake People G103-S goes for 277USD on Thomann and the āPā version goes for 330USD. Thatās too much for me to spend, just that I could have the Beyer DT 880 600ohm. Iāve only tested the 250ohm lightly but as of now, paired with Zen Dac, the 900 Pro X is the better package. No need of a dac/amp and still very good. But what the DT 880 have over it and all the other headphones Iāve tested is that insane imaging and detailing in the games I play, but is that difference worth 200-300USD more? Maybe Iāll just opt for a TYGR 300-R instead, Iāve heard alot of good things about them aswell, and I wont need to spunk out 300 dollars on an amp and a dac.
Edit: I just found one guy in my country that sells his barely used DT 880 for 80USD. If I could spare that 100 on new ones, it would be good hehe.
My 880 & 990 600 Ohm cans needed my Singxer high gain/full tilt to drive them. That was loud and Iām a loud listener but it was when I got a Cayin IHA-6, high gain/11 oāclock, that was when I heard those Beyer drivers being properly controlled. The Singxer SA-1, a lovely sounding, powerful amp, wasnāt doing them justice.
The atom+ has 136mW at 600 / 250mW at 300.
For that money you get the L50 (290mW at 600) and are entering A30pro territory (250 euro open box on amazon.de, 440mW at 600) which would work in Class A on headphone above 250 Ohm.
Impedance Power
16Ī© 750mW
50Ī© 1130mW
200Ī© 940mW
300Ī© 850mW
600Ī© 530mW
Those numbers are suspicious high, but I canāt find any measurements.
For the g109 they claim
18.8 Veff in 600 ohms = 590 mW
13.8 Veff in 100 ohms = 1900 mW
10.7 Veff in 50 ohms = 2300 mW
7.8 Veff in 50 ohms = 1900 mW
3.7 Veff in 16 ohms = 410 mW
(from drop.Com)
Here I can find ASR measurements that say 350mA at 300 and 1.1W at 32 Ohm. Quite a difference.
Those lake people / vioelectric are studio amps. Problem is that many studio sources (DAC) output more than 2V / 4V and then you can reach those numbers. To have this power at home we need to buy something like a RME adi 2 dac that outputs like 7Vā¦Or am I missing something?
Iāve had DT880 in 250 and 600 ohm and I didnāt like the 600 ohm on the Atom and at the time concluded that upgrading my amp for that particular edge case wasnāt worth it.
Iāve played a lot of FPS with the 880 and TYGR and the only way you can go wrong is if you prefer one sound signature over the other and end up with the wrong one for the music you listen to regularly.
Yeah, L50 is available for 235USD, so would need a dac aswell. But like I said, spending 300 bucks on dacs and amps is harsh for me due to using my headphones other than gameplaying. I could occasionally listen to orchestral music and watch sports talking in Discord with headphones on, but thatās it. I use a soundbar because frankly, I think that the DT 880 (standard), are pretty uncomfortable.
Anyway, I found two guys in my country that sells the Modi 2 and Magni 2 and one have the 3, both selling for 150 USD. Itās a reasonable price, hope theyāre availableā¦
But you already have the Zen DAC, right? That could be your DAC.
Hm, I probably need to read on the differences then. Iāve heard good things about the TYGR 300. But I would need to drive down to Germany or get one there to send me one because Beyer doesnāt sell them in my country lol
When you say the DT880 are uncomfortable, were you testing with a premium/edition model or the Pro model? beyerdynamicās pro headband has a noticeably higher clamping force.
I would question those ASR numbers, honestly.
Non pro, but I actually think I like headphones when they have a snug fit, like the 900 Pro X. But my problem with the DT 880 is the headband, the foam on them are too thin for my liking, but Iāve loosened them up a bit, so itās not as uncomfortable now.
I found a pair of DT 1770 Pro for a very cheap price. How about them in terms of imaging v the DT 1990 or DT 880? I donāt know what soundstage does in terms of gaming. I know that the Beyer 1xxx series is overkill for gaming, but it would be pleasant if I had proper headphones for music listening aswell. Could be nice with alternative to use balanced cables aswell, and I wouldāve more amp alternatives.
As a long time lurker I would like to chime in as well. Although I have ābetterā or āmore expensiveā headphones, I bought a pair of DT880 600 Ohms, mostly out of curiosity, you know the hype and all. Although I liked them, I always thought these couldnāt be the hyped headphones and these should be more to get from them. @WaveTheory also helped me along the way. I had SP200 at that time. It was fairly powerful and I think Iām not that sensitive to higher frequencies. I also tried them on SP400 (which is gain limited so less single ended power than SP200), SMSL M500s own headphone jack (which was suprisingly good) and a DIY hybrid tube amp which is very powerful but also strangely bright, not a good match.
So although I enjoyed DTs, they didnāt get much playing time. Then a wild Emotiva BasX A100 appeared on a used marketplace site. Mind you, Iām not in the continent of America and this could be my only chance to try so I jumped on it. Anyway, I knew DT880 didnāt need that kind of power nor BasX was the best amp.
When BasX arrived, I tried both with and without the jumpers. I liked sound with the jumpers better so kept them on. Bass was more tight I think. Bass might have been higher without the jumpers because of higher output impedance, but also it sounded just a little looser to me. Graphs from DIYaudiohaven suggests that 600 Ohm DT880 isnāt affected from output impedance that much. So it might have been placebo or confirmation bias for all I know. Anyway I sold the SP200. Now Iām using BasX exclusively with DT880 because the noise floor is noticable on every headphone I have except DT880. Cannot turn the volume knob past 9 oāclock with full DAC volume.
Conclusion: I like the pairing, I donāt feel Iām missing anything anymore, DTs doesnāt feel overly bright or harsh, even in higher volumes, I enjoy them. I intend to keep both DT880 and BasX for now because they are getting harder and harder to find. Maybe I would buy a pair of passive speakers or another hard to drive headphones like HE6 etc.
If you read all, thanks, I wanted to share my experience in case some of you are on the same boat. These are not hard to drive but like many of us said, but they should be kept under control that is possible with appropriate power. Less educated of us might point out the numbers like 100mw or 600 ohm, but I would like to remind you that that impedance is not constant throughout the frequancy range nor the music is. More experienced audiophiles or experts would argue, delivering the power immediately whenever needed is more important.
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Correct, itās not as effected as the 300 ohm Senns or the 250 ohm-ers from Beyer. One of the advantages of the 600 ohm impedance (and IIRC, itās impedance ranges from something like 613 ohms up to a little over 800) is that itās so high that most output impedances donāt effect the damping factor all that much. I was introduced to this on my Cayin HA-1AMK2 tube amp. My 6XX could sound very different on the wet-dry spectrum depending on where I set the ampās output impedance. The DT880-600 changed some, but not near to the degree.
Preach.
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@WaveTheory Nice to know people are learning from you. Inlcuding me re the 880/600 and Asgard 3ā¦Loving it, especially since adding in the Loki.
Re my search for a new usb to dac cable I have tried 5 including the AQ Forest and have settled on the Nordost Blue Heaven (at a discount lol.) Differences are subtle at first, but I like this one. Besides the usualā¦blacker, better SS, presence, cleaner details, etc. what clinched it was going back and listening to some tracks I know well, but hadnāt heard in
a while. It was a whole new experience of those songs and simply, wonderfully better!
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I wouldnāt even entertain the idea of an he6 if I were you. Theyāre really picky and theyāll show you how grainy that a100 is. 600ohm beyers are really forgiving to that grain but the he6 will make it the only thing you can hear. They straight up deserve better and they make it really clear when they have tons of power, but the power is dirty.